The Doctrine of Daat Torah as a Case Study ---- Why Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz Never Joined The Agudath Israel, and Why Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik Left!
READ THE ENTIRE ESSAY - "DAAT TORAH" THE BEGINNING AND THE END:
The Holocaust really did serve as a great refutation to so many simplistic bromides that became articles of faith in the Torah observant community. Torah study protects? Nope. Tefillah protects? Nope. Daat Torah knows best? Nope. Running away to Israel will destroy you? Nope.
Well yes, they take the whole "Even if they tell you left is right" very seriously. The Michtav MiEliyahu was especially big on this infallibility. Did your "Gadol" tell your family to stay in Europe during the war instead of running to Israel when the had the chance? Were they all murdered? The "Gadol" was still right!
No need to struggle with documentcloud.adobe.com and take pictures with your smartphone. My little tocken of appreciation to you, my dear Shraga Feivel. Enjoy pure PDF :)
Thousands of yeshivah bochurim throughout Israel have fallen ill in recent weeks with a mysterious virus with symptoms of high fever, stomach pain, cold symptoms and especially severe weakness.
The virus, which began before Chanukah in some yeshivos and others more recently, has hit yeshivos in Jerusalem, Bnei Brak, and Elad as well as in Kfar Chabad and other yishuvim. The virus has hit all types of yeshivos – Litvak, Sefardi, and Chassidish as well as Dati Leumi yeshivos on yishuvim and in towns and cities. As could be expected, most of the ill bochurim got tested for COVID when they became ill but they tested negative.
The yeshivah that seems to have been hit the worse is Yeshivas Torah B’Tifarta in Elad, where over 240 bochurim have fallen ill, with many suffering from high fever. About 150 bochurim in Yeshivas Be’er HaTalmud caught the virus and another 150 in Yeshivas Orchos HaTorah. Dati Leumi Yeshivos throughout Israel have been affected including yeshivos in Nahariya, Mitzpeh Ramon, Yerucham, Nir, Mitzpeh, and others.
According to a B’Chadrei Charedim report, hundreds of bochurim in the US in Satmar and Belz yeshivos have also fallen ill with the virus as well as students in Talmudei Torah in Williamsburg, Kiryas Yoel and Monroe.
This article is flawed & it is prejudiced by the author either believing that Rabbi JB was the gadol hador or perhaps from a secular standpoint to recognize him as the biggest & smartest rabbi.
Rabbi JB was far from perfect after he was influenced by his mother's Maskilish tendencies which is why he allowed his own wife to wear pants. Also note that a rosh yeshiva who switched from the YU world to the yeshivish world has complained for many years that a molester was preying on kids at the YU Shabbos youth group in the Heights and nothing was done about it even after it was brought to the "highest levels", with the excuse that the molester "wouldn't do such things".
The author fails to understand how Daas Torah really works (& fails to work) in the yeshivishe & Chassidishe worlds. With Yosef & the Shvotim, both sides made mistakes. The Yeshiva movement did not invent the concept of Daas Torah. Nor did the Chofetz Chaim invent the concept that a talmid chochom muflag can posken on anything - he got it from a Chazal, which the author himself comes around to sort of admit but then bizarrely downplays it as only "Medrashic" Chazal when it's in fact a befeirush Mishna!
When R' Leib Malin was a bochur he overrode R' Chaim Oizer's psak to not escape Europe. The gadol & zkan hador was mevatel daas to the bochur when he heard his reasoning.
The author doesn't even get it right with his hairsplitting over Papal infallibility. While his analysis may have been correct at one point, the Agudah of today acts more Catholic than the Pope!
The author starts twisting R' Chaim Oizer out of context on poskening from sevora before somewhat pulling back to recognize that sevora is also part of Torah & psak. This seems to be a theme with this author that he starts off with an misinterpretation yet still uses it to bolster his point even after incidentally retracting.
I hope the author misspoke & is not a complete mechutzof when he calls the Brisker Rov a "pseudonym" for R' Yitzchok Zev. Certainly the author's understanding of the Rov's shita on Tzionim is gross am haaraztus.
The author's understanding of Rav Schach's kavvonos are at best simplistic if not intended to cynically demean. Rav Schach would have preferred to not have to attack Lubavitch but he had to neutralize a dangerous element. Old School Lubavitchers have admitted Rav Schach did the Chassidus a favor by somewhat marginalizing Meshichist crazies.
The author starts emerging as heretical with his nonsense comparison of Daas Torah to Plato. Plato had an exchange with the Novi Yirmiya & his totally moyred b'HKBH talmid muvhok Aristotle went on to adulterate the seforim in Shlomo Hamelech's otzar. Never mind I guess that the Yevonim hated Torah almost as much as Amalek.
For how many pages is the author going to bend himself out of shape on comparing Torah to Democracy? The fact that there is an Am Hanivchar is already undemocratic. Pure Democracy is actually an avoidah zarah whether he likes it or not.
And seriously, he quotes the aggressive homo pervert Joel Roth from JTS???!!!
I have a lot to say about Rav Dessler but I'm not quite sure how to word it when in a public forum.
If I read the piece slowly I will probably find it's composed of even more lokshen.
"the Agudah of today acts more Catholic than the Pope!"
The Rebbe, Bob Grant, was a huge fan of the Shomrim concept of civilian patrols, who are prepared to use force if necessary, to stop criminals. He made it a point to attend a dinner of one of the Shomrim orgs at least once a year. Once, he got the oylam at a dinner to go along with a derogatory sing song in his Mammamia Lashon to stick it to Mario Cuomo, tatten of menuvolim Andy & Freddo (Chris). Bob was so impressed how quickly they caught on to his havorah, that he remarked on his radio show that er macht a shvuah gore "that under that levush, those guys are Italian!"
Here's where I get lost with Rav Dessler. His one talmid who I think pushed his sichos the most was a very difficult person. He was kicked out as head of a very prestigious kollel. He was next at a pareve kind of yeshiva, then a borderline modern orthodox yeshiva. Between these 3 yeshivos he formed a relationship with almost no talmidim. He is known to have 3 chassidim. A dentist in NY. Another NYer who is a strange fellow. And a kiruv rabbi in the Midwest who the BTs he attracts are a collection of weirdos, who besides being out of whack socially-mentally, often have bad bedside manner & bad hygiene, missing teeth, etc. The Dessler talmid was also alter Heim European but he was totally out of touch with Americans. When he told you over from the Michtav, in public shmuzen or privately, you felt like he was giving you heck & looked down at you like you're a good for nothing bum.
And I know 2 Dessler grandchildren who I would describe as so completely out to lunch that they are maddening. One of them is an einikel by marriage, a Philly fanatic who signed the letter attacking all the gedolei Eretz Yisroel for daring to take Shmuel Kaminetzky to task for his progress in whitewashing mamzerim.
The Holocaust really did serve as a great refutation to so many simplistic bromides that became articles of faith in the Torah observant community.
ReplyDeleteTorah study protects? Nope.
Tefillah protects? Nope.
Daat Torah knows best? Nope.
Running away to Israel will destroy you? Nope.
The knockout punch - R' Dessler "Even when they are wrong, they're right" Fell to the floor...
ReplyDeleteWell yes, they take the whole "Even if they tell you left is right" very seriously.
ReplyDeleteThe Michtav MiEliyahu was especially big on this infallibility. Did your "Gadol" tell your family to stay in Europe during the war instead of running to Israel when the had the chance? Were they all murdered? The "Gadol" was still right!
No need to struggle with documentcloud.adobe.com and take pictures with your smartphone.
ReplyDeleteMy little tocken of appreciation to you, my dear Shraga Feivel.
Enjoy pure PDF :)
http://altosharepdf.com/share/9b946c16cfaea9af2ba471f3f0d8b5cc
https://collive.com/virus-infecting-many-yeshiva-bochurim-remains-mystery/
ReplyDeleteThousands of yeshivah bochurim throughout Israel have fallen ill in recent weeks with a mysterious virus with symptoms of high fever, stomach pain, cold symptoms and especially severe weakness.
The virus, which began before Chanukah in some yeshivos and others more recently, has hit yeshivos in Jerusalem, Bnei Brak, and Elad as well as in Kfar Chabad and other yishuvim. The virus has hit all types of yeshivos – Litvak, Sefardi, and Chassidish as well as Dati Leumi yeshivos on yishuvim and in towns and cities. As could be expected, most of the ill bochurim got tested for COVID when they became ill but they tested negative.
The yeshivah that seems to have been hit the worse is Yeshivas Torah B’Tifarta in Elad, where over 240 bochurim have fallen ill, with many suffering from high fever. About 150 bochurim in Yeshivas Be’er HaTalmud caught the virus and another 150 in Yeshivas Orchos HaTorah. Dati Leumi Yeshivos throughout Israel have been affected including yeshivos in Nahariya, Mitzpeh Ramon, Yerucham, Nir, Mitzpeh, and others.
According to a B’Chadrei Charedim report, hundreds of bochurim in the US in Satmar and Belz yeshivos have also fallen ill with the virus as well as students in Talmudei Torah in Williamsburg, Kiryas Yoel and Monroe.
אוי וייס מיר!
ReplyDeleteThe pdf disappeared. Here it goes again (better save it to your blog):
http://pdfhost.net/index.php?Action=DownloadFile&id=fe8f5d1408a39c96d4c935603b2e1eec
This article is flawed & it is prejudiced by the author either believing that Rabbi JB was the gadol hador or perhaps from a secular standpoint to recognize him as the biggest & smartest rabbi.
ReplyDeleteRabbi JB was far from perfect after he was influenced by his mother's Maskilish tendencies which is why he allowed his own wife to wear pants. Also note that a rosh yeshiva who switched from the YU world to the yeshivish world has complained for many years that a molester was preying on kids at the YU Shabbos youth group in the Heights and nothing was done about it even after it was brought to the "highest levels", with the excuse that the molester "wouldn't do such things".
The author fails to understand how Daas Torah really works (& fails to work) in the yeshivishe & Chassidishe worlds. With Yosef & the Shvotim, both sides made mistakes. The Yeshiva movement did not invent the concept of Daas Torah. Nor did the Chofetz Chaim invent the concept that a talmid chochom muflag can posken on anything - he got it from a Chazal, which the author himself comes around to sort of admit but then bizarrely downplays it as only "Medrashic" Chazal when it's in fact a befeirush Mishna!
When R' Leib Malin was a bochur he overrode R' Chaim Oizer's psak to not escape Europe. The gadol & zkan hador was mevatel daas to the bochur when he heard his reasoning.
The author doesn't even get it right with his hairsplitting over Papal infallibility. While his analysis may have been correct at one point, the Agudah of today acts more Catholic than the Pope!
The author starts twisting R' Chaim Oizer out of context on poskening from sevora before somewhat pulling back to recognize that sevora is also part of Torah & psak. This seems to be a theme with this author that he starts off with an misinterpretation yet still uses it to bolster his point even after incidentally retracting.
I hope the author misspoke & is not a complete mechutzof when he calls the Brisker Rov a "pseudonym" for R' Yitzchok Zev. Certainly the author's understanding of the Rov's shita on Tzionim is gross am haaraztus.
The author's understanding of Rav Schach's kavvonos are at best simplistic if not intended to cynically demean. Rav Schach would have preferred to not have to attack Lubavitch but he had to neutralize a dangerous element. Old School Lubavitchers have admitted Rav Schach did the Chassidus a favor by somewhat marginalizing Meshichist crazies.
The author starts emerging as heretical with his nonsense comparison of Daas Torah to Plato. Plato had an exchange with the Novi Yirmiya & his totally moyred b'HKBH talmid muvhok Aristotle went on to adulterate the seforim in Shlomo Hamelech's otzar. Never mind I guess that the Yevonim hated Torah almost as much as Amalek.
For how many pages is the author going to bend himself out of shape on comparing Torah to Democracy? The fact that there is an Am Hanivchar is already undemocratic. Pure Democracy is actually an avoidah zarah whether he likes it or not.
And seriously, he quotes the aggressive homo pervert Joel Roth from JTS???!!!
I have a lot to say about Rav Dessler but I'm not quite sure how to word it when in a public forum.
If I read the piece slowly I will probably find it's composed of even more lokshen.
Yeah, I know the drill. Here's yet another tawdry-minded mechaber I wouldn't trust my kids with.
ReplyDelete"the Agudah of today acts more Catholic than the Pope!"
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe, Bob Grant, was a huge fan of the Shomrim concept of civilian patrols, who are prepared to use force if necessary, to stop criminals. He made it a point to attend a dinner of one of the Shomrim orgs at least once a year. Once, he got the oylam at a dinner to go along with a derogatory sing song in his Mammamia Lashon to stick it to Mario Cuomo, tatten of menuvolim Andy & Freddo (Chris). Bob was so impressed how quickly they caught on to his havorah, that he remarked on his radio show that er macht a shvuah gore "that under that levush, those guys are Italian!"
Brisker : I believe the author came with no agenda to the historical aspect of "Daat Torah"
ReplyDeleteHere's where I get lost with Rav Dessler. His one talmid who I think pushed his sichos the most was a very difficult person. He was kicked out as head of a very prestigious kollel. He was next at a pareve kind of yeshiva, then a borderline modern orthodox yeshiva. Between these 3 yeshivos he formed a relationship with almost no talmidim. He is known to have 3 chassidim. A dentist in NY. Another NYer who is a strange fellow. And a kiruv rabbi in the Midwest who the BTs he attracts are a collection of weirdos, who besides being out of whack socially-mentally, often have bad bedside manner & bad hygiene, missing teeth, etc. The Dessler talmid was also alter Heim European but he was totally out of touch with Americans. When he told you over from the Michtav, in public shmuzen or privately, you felt like he was giving you heck & looked down at you like you're a good for nothing bum.
ReplyDeleteAnd I know 2 Dessler grandchildren who I would describe as so completely out to lunch that they are maddening. One of them is an einikel by marriage, a Philly fanatic who signed the letter attacking all the gedolei Eretz Yisroel for daring to take Shmuel Kaminetzky to task for his progress in whitewashing mamzerim.
I nicknamed R' Dessler the "mind wrestler" when I was in yeshiva. After one quick go-thru, I realized that he was not my kind of guy :-)
ReplyDelete