A deeply disturbing interview with the Yale
historian, famed for offering 20th century lessons for protecting
today’s democracies.
I had been trying for several weeks to arrange an interview with
American historian Timothy Snyder. I wanted to speak to him in
particular about a bestselling book he wrote, “On Tyranny,” that offers
“Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century” that might help prevent the
collapse of democracies.
The short volume includes advice about not making it easy for
leaderships who are bent on authoritarianism by preemptively consenting
to their goals, defending targeted institutions, remembering
professional ethics, and not confusing dangerous nationalism with
commendable patriotism. One of the many memorable epithets from the text
that stuck in my mind was: “A nationalist encourages us to be our
worst, and then tells us that we are the best… A patriot, by contrast,
wants the nation to live up to its ideals.”
Not everything in the book has obvious relevance for an Israel
whose democratic institutions are under attack by the coalition led by
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. But much of it has — certainly with
regard to the growing concentration of power in the hands of a single
leader and the ongoing attempts by his coalition to radically constrain
the judiciary.
As it turned out, the date we set for the (Zoom) interview, February
20, coincided with the return by Hamas of what it said were the bodies
of four slain hostages — Oded Lifshitz, Shiri Bibas, Ariel Bibas and
Kfir Bibas — and we were speaking as Israel’s national forensic
institute was in the process of establishing whether Hamas had indeed
sent home the four bodies it had promised. It had not.
The sheer volume of breaking news since that day meant I only found
the time to write up the Snyder interview now, a week later. And the
news keeps moving, of course: As I was reading over this piece before
publication, US President Donald Trump was publicly berating
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in the Oval Office — a
staggering confrontation that, as you read on, you will gather would
have dismayed but probably not surprised Snyder.
A professor at Yale specializing in Central and Eastern Europe,
Russia and the Holocaust, who sits on the US Holocaust Memorial Museum’s
Committee of Conscience, Snyder has been to Israel and has lots of
friends here, but took pains in our interview to stress that he is not
an expert on Israel and its current affairs. “It doesn’t make sense to
ask me about detailed Israeli things,” he said, but “what I can do is
apply different kinds of knowledge to the predicaments that you
describe.”
Demonstrators gather in New York’s Union
Square - One of the protesters
holds a placard with a quotation from Timothy Snyder’s book “On
Tyranny.” New York, February 17, 2025
Our conversation wound up not focusing very much on the Israeli
coalition’s judicial overhaul and, indeed, took several unpredictable
turns — to the point where, at the end, Snyder noted that “It may not
have been what you were looking for, but I hope it was of interest.”
Indeed it was.
I found his warnings that Israel stands to be deeply harmed by the
Trump administration’s embrace of dictatorships and by what he believes
to be the Musk-Trump assault on the fundamental functioning of the
United States to be important and worrying.
And I was intrigued by his suggestion that Netanyahu might be among
the world leaders most capable — if not the best-placed of all — when it
comes to trying to talk Trump out of policies that are not in the
American interest and, by extension, not in Israel’s interest either. If
Netanyahu is trying to humor the president and scared of crossing him,
“I would find that worrisome,” he said. Israel’s leaders, he elaborated
dryly, might want to “counsel the United States that it’s not a good
idea to disassemble your national security apparatus… or to fire your
best generals.”
“In terms of the long structural relationship, Israel depends upon a
functioning United States,” Snyder stressed. “More important than the
particular goodies that Trump might give you right now,” he said, “is
whether, in 2030, the United States is actually going to be capable of
doing basic things.”
In that vein, he also talked about Zionists having looked back at
thousands of years of Jewish history and accurately recognized that
“there has to be a state.” By contrast, “the people who are now running
my country,” he said, are engaged in “the self-destruction of American
state capacity.”
The Times of Israel: It’s an awful day in Israel because they
returned four bodies of hostages, including the Bibas family. I assume
you’ve followed a bit. They’re just waiting to confirm the identities of
them.
I know you’re incredibly busy and I appreciate that you found some time. I
want to set up the context in which I wanted to speak to you. Forgive
me if I’m telling you stuff that’s really obvious to you.
This is a country that’s been in a war for 16 months after an
invasion by Hamas terrorists, and 1,200 people killed, and hostages
abducted, and there are lots of people around Israel trying to murder us
and, in many cases, to wipe out Israel. And they have lots of support
internationally. We’re facing an incredibly oppressive region, as has
always been the case.
At the same time, we have a very problematic, divisive
government that, it seems to me, is battering away at the pillars of our
democracy. As you probably know, we don’t have a constitution in
Israel. We don’t have a strong, independent legislature because the
majority coalition controls parliament. We only, therefore, have the
executive, really, and the judiciary. The judiciary is pretty feisty and
independent, but the current coalition is trying to undo that. It’s
trying to oversee almost the entire process for choosing judges, and to
limit the capacity of the Supreme Court to intervene on anything.
Basically, the only thing protecting any individual rights from the
political majority is the judiciary, and they’re under assault.
So that’s the context. And I wanted your insights, echoes,
and lessons we might learn from other eras and other parts of the world.
How worried are you as a scholar in America about what Trump
is doing in America? And what we should make of Trump, therefore, who is
being very supportive of Israel at the moment.
There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. There are
relationships where one person gives the other person everything they
want, and that’s not necessarily a healthy relationship because maybe we
shouldn’t get all the things that we want. I think Gaza here is a good
example, where Israelis might think, okay, well, Trump is showing his
general sympathy by saying that he wants to ethnically cleanse everybody
from Gaza and build a bunch of hotels.
Timothy Snyder, a professor of history at
Yale University and the author of books including “Bloodlands” and “The
Road to Unfreedom,” speaks in Kharkiv, Ukraine, September 8, 2024.
You could read that as general sympathy, or you could just read it as
someone who has crossed over from pro-right-wing Israeli political
instincts into absolute madness. And that if something like that were
actually attempted, it could not possibly be understood as pro-Israeli.
Not that it is going to happen, by the way, because these are all just
fancies. But if something like that actually happened, that would break
precisely the Israeli Arab reconciliations that have happened over the
course of the last 15 years or so. That’s the one thing.
The other thing is that the Israeli-American relationship has always
depended upon the American state capacity to do various things. But the
crucial story of the Trump administration so far is the self-destruction
of American state capacity.
So if Israelis in the future are expecting things like arms
deliveries in crucial times, or they’re expecting the ability to broker
peace talks or whatever, the Trump administration has essentially fired
everybody who has the confidence to do that kind of thing, and the
prospects are for more of that.
Trump is making the United States dysfunctional. And at
that point, it becomes a little bit academic whether he’s pro-Israel or
anti-Israel or whatever, because there isn’t going to be the capability
anymore
This sort of … libertarian-style America is going to be dysfunctional
and not capable of the things that Israel has been used to, whether
we’re talking about 1967 or 1973 or whether we’re talking about 2023. I
don’t think this America is going to be capable of those kinds of
things. I would suspect that’s the thing about Trump which maybe hasn’t
reached Israel yet: that he’s making the United States dysfunctional.
And at that point, it becomes a little bit academic whether he’s
pro-Israel or anti-Israel or whatever, because there isn’t going to be
the capability anymore.
But if you’re asking me, as an American, what I think: I think it’s
bad for Israel that the United States is now taking the side of
dictatorships around the world. That’s not going to create an
environment which is going to be helpful for Israeli democracy. And I
take democracy to be in the interest of Israel.
Elon Musk is the most powerful person in the United States now, not Donald Trump
You’re describing a Trump, who I’m sure you were troubled by
in 2020, as, nonetheless, a very different and more dangerous president
now?
There are two basic differences to start with. Number one, Elon Musk
is the most powerful person in the United States now, not Donald Trump.
And we didn’t have that factor in 2016. We didn’t have somebody who was
determined to neuter American public administration or the American
civil service. And we have that now. We have somebody whose life’s
mission essentially is to make American government dysfunctional. That’s
something which is new.
Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk with his
son X Æ A-Xii join US President Donald Trump as he signs executive
orders in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, February 11,
2025.
And the second thing that we didn’t have the last time around is that
we didn’t have a Trump who was completely surrounded by people who
would actually do the things that he says he wants them to do.
READ ALL OF IT:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/tim-snyders-warning-israel-depends-upon-a-functioning-us-trump-and-musk-are-destroying-it/?