EVERY SIGNATURE MATTERS - THIS BILL MUST PASS!

EVERY SIGNATURE MATTERS - THIS BILL MUST PASS!
CLICK - GOAL - 100,000 NEW SIGNATURES! 75,000 SIGNATURES HAVE ALREADY BEEN SUBMITTED TO GOVERNOR CUOMO!

CLICK!

Thursday, July 27, 2006

"What to do with Abusive Rabbis: Halachic Considerations" By Rabbi Mark Dratch

Rabbi Dratch sent this in and asked me to post it. Rabbi Dratch is a very highly qualified individual and specializes in the field of sexual abuse. His web site is: jsafe.org.
He has networked with many qualified individuals able and willing to assist victims of sexual abuse. I endorse his work and he has endorsed mine. All victims of sexual abuse, whether children or women can feel very secure with his professional assistance.


UOJ


click images to enlarge or cut and paste the following link to read the file (PDF format):

http://jsafe.org/pdfs/What_to_do_with_Abusive_Rabbis.pdf











61 comments:

Anonymous said...

County Law sections 700 and 927 provide that a District Attorney "shall" prosecute crimes in his county. Cases have held that a D.A. still retains prosecutorial discretion not to prosecute minor crimes, but the sex crimes committed by Mondrowitz hardly fit that category.

The victims should write a letter to the D.A. asking that they take a second look at the Mondrowitz case, and include the U.S. State Department opinion that the U.S.-Israel extradition treaty operates retroactively. Courts will give great weight to a legal opinion from a government agency that is charged with the responsibility for enforcing a particular law - greater weight than, let's say, a local D.A'.s office, which does not normally interpret international treaties.

The statute of limitations has not expired. It is "tolled" or "suspended" while the defendant is out of the country.

If the Brooklyn D.A. refuses to prosecute, the victims can bring their own Article 78 action (mandamus) in court, seeking relief that the D.A. be compelled to prosecute under the aforementioned statutes, or, that a special prosecutor be appointed pursuant to County Law 701. A case like that is rare, but they have been brought before.

There is a victim rights organization based in Washington, D.C., the National Center for victims of Crime. They have a website, and their phone numbers are 202-467-8700, and 800-398-2255. Perhaps they can be of assistance.

Tsedek tsedek tirdof l'maan tichye...

Anonymous said...

Now Mark Dratch is a man d'omar. A man who can issua a psak without knowing facts.....

Someone who dedicates his life to uncovering sexual (and other) abuse... makes me wonder.....

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Torah Temimah Parents:

For Your Back To School Apparel Needs For Your Beloved Children:

SHOP AT: www.cafepress.com/yudi

Anonymous said...

uoj is sui generis. norman lamm is sui generis. mark dratch is sui generis.

John Q. Publicstein said...

It appears that Dratch has failed to address a very significant aspect of rabbinic abuse. Much of what Dratch lays out in a very straightforward manner presumes the establishment of the rabbi's guilt.

At what point is a rabbi considered "guilty" and rendered unfit to serve, in the absence of, or prior to, a hearing of the facts, either rabbinic (bet din) or civil in nature?

Looking at the Kolko case, for example, never has the man been found guilty of any crime that would render him unfit. He has certainly had an inordinate amount of rumors follow him for decades and accusers - who one day hope to establish their alleged victimization extant from their own testimony - have come forward.

In Kolko's case, there is no doubt that the rumors alone should have been enough of a call to his superiors (the term is used loosely in reference to Lipa Margulies, hardly "superior" in any way other than the fact that he was Kolko's boss) to isolate the man from any position of influence or even exposure to children. But that isn't the issue raised by Dratch. The question remains, are rumors enough to render the man unfit?

On page four of his essay, Dratch cites Yoreh Deah in stating "if a rabbi's sins are more egregious (than those indiscretions that did not impact on the safety and well-being of others) and there are siginificant suspicions that he is involved in heresy or that he is engaged in licentious behavior," then such a rabbi should be held accountable publicly. Apparently, if the rumors are significantly impacting on the rabbi's reputation, then that is enough to act upon to the extent that the rabbi could be treated as if his guilt was established.

But does that make sense? What if, as Tendler in Monsey has suggested, a conspirator is afoot spreading these rumors? Is Dratch suggesting guilty until proven innocent if a rabbi is involved?

Turning back to Kolko briefly, it would certaily sound reasonable to approach the matter on teo fronts:

1. Since the rumors are persistent, until they can be proven false, then the man can have no access to children, as if he is guilty; and

2. It is incumbent upon Kolko himself to prove his innocense and hasten the coming of his day in court.

Another case worth considering in this regard is that of Ephrayim Bryks. In Ottowa, he probably couldn’t find work as a gabbai sforim in a reform temple. Yet here in New York, he has successfully rebounded from grave accusations that included forced sodomy. His accuser committed suicide before his testimony could be recorded for the record. (In fact, the young man had gone to the police and told his story, but it was discovered that the recording equipment failed during that first interview.)

Has the New York community committed a grave error in employing Bryks? Dratch’s exposition doesn’t really provide enough information for us to say.

Another case, that of Yaakov Weiner, is even more confounding. In that case, Weiner, accused or ripping a camper’s pajamas and sexually abusing him, was actually charged – and ultimately acquitted. While the judge had no doubt that something had happened in the bunk house the night in question, “contradictory and sometimes retracting statements” left him unclear as to what exactly occurred. Hardly a resounding approbation, but an acquittal nonetheless.

Is Weiner fit to serve as a rabbi in light of the outcome of his case?

Dratch’s article is certainly informative, well-researched, reasoned and constructed in a style that is easy to grasp. But as a practical tool in addressing a serious issue facing the rank and file baalei batim today, it falls short.

In light of the dispute raging in New Hempstead, it is a shame that Dratch stopped short. With lawsuits flying back and forth and serious strife burning the community, Dratch’s perspective on the guilt threshold would have been meaningful. Tendler certainly maintains a loyal following as upset by the process of Tendler’s removal as much as they bemoan the lack of due process. Whether by Tendler’s design or not, no din torah or legal proceeding has made any findings of sexual misconduct after taking testimony from both accuser and accused. While that may yet happen, Tendler maintains his innocence.

Perhaps in the end the point is moot in any event. Certainly with no following, a rabbi has no one to lead. Baalei batim must make their own decisions, and draw their own conclusions. Torah is laav bashomayim hi, and we are not a religion of blind followers. Nor can anyone be forced to follow a rabbi, even the most upright and honest, if he chooses not to. Therefore, perhaps, the best advice to follow is caveat emptor.

Anonymous said...

i heard some rumors that leizerowitz is trying to get back into chinuch in israel hashem yishmor someone please give information of his whearabouts please post home phone # -address-shul where he davens-mikvah he goes to-his neighbors have to know to protect their kids from this pervert. leizerowitz victim forever

Anonymous said...

uoj, the rumor is that mr. t holds your life in the balance. Your family, crazed with fright, at this very moment (every moment) is attempting to sway you, to bring you back to truth, to Toireh, to Tuvya's way. There is yet a space for you on the dais at the next agoodah dinner, just adjust your bowtie and bow down.

We always knew how to take out a zaken mamre. When everyone disagrees, he's gone.

Anonymous said...

Check out today's front page of the Forward! http://forward.com

"Victims Press Broolyn D.A. to Seek Abuse Suspect's Extradition from Israel"

UOJ's posting of Kolko is mentioned as well as UOJ getting Kolker to write the article in the New York Magazine!

UOJ, keep up the good work!

Anonymous said...

hey, uo. Mr T said he has evidence. He is discredited.

Requiring UO to submit to daas Toirah is ridiculous. He is discredited.

Accusing you of being mivazeh everyone on this blog is a reflection of the bizayon of our doyr. He is discredited.

Do I have to repeat myself? Even if he outs you, even if your cousins have to fear the repurcussions, because truth is not on his side, he is discredited.

Can you imagine that he accuses this controversial site of harboring leitzonus? Nonetheless, despite the fact that I have evidence that he's been discredited (I'll share the copy of the audiotape after midnight) his American Express and Discover cards will still work.

way to go, uoj.

Anonymous said...

J. Q. Publicstein, your comments are indicative to your ignorance and at best u r no more than a self proclaimed critic of quality halachic responsa. Surely u must know that a kol that persists for a long time requires of those in charge to remove one from a rabbinic position or exposure to inocent children REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT THE KOL STILL CANNOT BE 100% verified and the facts have not been borne out in a court of law, be it beis din or arkuis. The most recent responsa, that of rabbi wozner, is the latest of clear and torah grounded halachic responsa to deal with this issue. If u are not sufficiently qualified to discus the halacha view in this matter, perhaps u r best to stay quiet and let others like rabbi Dratch or Rabbi Blau inform us concerned citizens of the torahs point of view.

Anonymous said...

There it is: the modern orthodox are as well informed as the agoodah. The modern orthodox simply know less.

Anonymous said...

Let us address the tuvie theme.

Tuvya, the self appointed minion of the charedi velt has judged uoj worthy of being outed into cherem. He will not speak to him anymore. Tuvie is a tzaddik, you see, and he is defending the honor of HoRav HaGoin P. S. the light of Israel and the diaspora; he is defending the light of Israel in the diaspora (turn right to see the bais medrosh dormitory with internet access). He has judged uoj guilty of being, get this, "A MEGALOMANIAC; HE IS A LIAR; AND HE IS A COWARD. He has caused a tremendous amount of unjustified damage."

So, the question remains, is uoj truly a cowardly lian, who has caused "a tremendous amount of unjustified damage." OR IS TUVYA AN APOLOGIST WHO IS UPSET TO SEE THE GOOD NAME OF CHAREIDI INSTITUTIONS, CAMP AGOOD DUH, TOIREH TEMUMBA, HIS RABBEIM BESMIRCHED BECAUSE WHERE THERE'S SMOKE THERE'S FIRE?

UOJ must be stopped, he says. He's the real enemy of the oilom hatoiroh, not the flawed beings of that yeshivevelt.

In a court of law, in Bais Din, these charges of toovee would be taken very seriously. Tatty, he called me names. He is a meglomaniac, a coward. Tough sentences for these crimes.

But, on the charge that uoj is a liar, the evidence is slim. Tuvee is walking on thin ice. Instead of allowing truth to prevail, his bais din has concluded that nastiness must be met with nastiness, me duh, k'negged midah, as if he's the celestial court. But, of course he is. He represents the ones most adversely affected by bad publicity, who may be guilty and anyone who says talmide chachumim are guilty is a liar, a meglomanianc, a coward and worse.

What's worse? honesty.

way to go, tuv. Your defense of the indefensible is a great kiddush hashem?

Shirley Ellis said...

Tuvia,

UOJ is a coward? What are you? What is your real name? Let's out you. I give you till noon. Reveal who you are or I will out you.
Who are you?
Zwiebel?
Ibrahim Shafran?
Youssef Rosenblum?
Yonatan Rosenblum?
Jack Perlow?
Aron "The Prof" Twerski?

At noon we will out you. Everyone can play the name game.

Anonymous said...

Regarding Mr. "T"

Dunno about UOJ being a liar
Dunno if outing him is the correct thing to do
Dunno if UOJ is a megalomaniac

BUT
I DO KNOW that the amount of posts being censored on this blog is SICKENING.

If you are soooo NOT afraid of T, WHY the censoring????

UOJ - your censoring just encourages people to send their comments to T.

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Above Anon,

Regarding T, enduoj,Shlomo, Alex, Shmuel, Yankel, RY,....he is hellbent on hurting an innocent person and his chashuv family. I will not participate in that obscene behavior.

Anonymous said...

mr teva doesn't let us walk on him uoj. His blog is much more ardently censored than your own. You at least post. He simply regurgitates what he chooses to. A lot of that over there.

Mr. T. Tuvya the rationalist. Tuvya, who stands for Toireh, truth (our truth), justice (get rid of uoj) the moronic way.

Mr. T. tee hee. toovee. Can't you see what you r doing? You are making a further laughingstock of the oilom haToirah. YOU, TU, ARE A MEGLOMANIAC IF YOU THINK YOU CAN PROTECT MOLESTERS AND ABUSERS BY COVERING UP FOR THEM. YOU TOO ARE A COWARD IF YOUR EARS ARE SO PURE YOU CAN'T HEAR THE NIVUL PEH, THE FRUSTRATION OF IGNORED VICTIMS WHO WERE ASSAULTED. YU (DID TUVEE GO TO YU? CHAS VESHOLOM. TU RO?) ARE A LIAR, TUVEE, IF YOU ARE RELYING ON "CREDIBLE" SOURCES. WHAT IS CREDIBLE? THAT SOMEONE WANTS TO IMAGINE THAT IN EVERY CLOSET OF THE USA THERE'S UOJ? YOU CERTAINLY DO NOT KNOW WHO ELSE IS IN THE CLOSET.

maybe tuvia's rebbe? If that's HIS yetzer hara, let him fight it and stay pure. If yours is wasting everybody else's time "in pursuit of truth" take out an ad in hamoidia.

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Please copy and paste this e-mail or use this as an outline and send urgent e-mails to the D.A.


Dear D.A. Hynes and A.D.A. Schmetterer:

It is vital that you put as much pressure as possible on the Justice Department and Israeli legal officials for the extradition of Mondrowitz. Until Mondrowitz's attorneys attempt to block his extradition and the Israeli courts decide the issue, we will not know if the changes in the Israeli law are retroactive or not.

Unless Mondowitz is extradited and Kolko is investigated and indicted, the abuse of Orthodox children by rabbis and other adult "professionals" and authority figures will continue unabated, with the abusers and their enablers knowing that they face little risk of being outed and the abused feeling it useless to report the crimes. Only you can help, save, and protect countless children from further and future abuse by vigorously and successfully pursuing these vilest of criminals.


schmetj@brooklynda.org

hynesc@Brooklynda.org

Anonymous said...

"As I have detailed extensively on this blog and will continue to, this man is destructive."

Your facile reasoning, tuvya, is proof enough. You have detailed details proving nothing. The fact is that uoj is the enema. Sometimes these procedures are therapeutic, not destructive. The problem is that there are waste products in every system. The oilom haToira needs a plumber. Could you be he?

b'mechilas kevoidom, there is refuse even at the top. Klal Yisroel needs our drains unclogged. UOJ simply flushed what was already out. This is disturbing to those who strut with swagger, feeling superior. There was a better way of handling these crises in the past: ignoring them.

We hope everyone is having a wonderful time in Camp Agudah this year, but if the kids are safer, it's because of uoj, not despite him.

Sometimes the ends justify the means. If all tuvee can offer is another mass tehillim rally for all of klal yisroel to destroy uoj (forget hizbullah, they live far away), och und vay.

Anonymous said...

What is called Daas Torah today, is not of the caliber of Daas Torah of yesteryear, when Rabbonim would stick up for the truth and not be afraid to paskin correctly even if other Rabbonim would be against them. Now the Rabbonim just stick together, whether right or wrong and cover up for each other. At best they just don't "get involved" and at worst they do real damage. If UOJ is a real emesdicke person, and he really knows the truth, let him speak up, as long as there isn't Chas V'sholom a hair of untruth or stretching the truth. If he is doing this l'shem Shomayim, may Hashem help his cause.

Anonymous said...

is it shmuel b. gold from woodmere?

Anonymous said...

Let's get past this nonsense that just because someone is "chareidi" he is automatically wrong and just becasue someone is "modern orthodox" or "non-orthodox" he is automatically right.

Anonymous said...

"There is doing the correct thing even if I look stupid." Let us ponder the meaning of tuvee's words.

Tuvee said he's stupid. HE IS NOT CREDIBLE.

TUVya says he is doing the correct thing. The politically correct thing?

Tuvya says a family is huddled in fear, holed up in their basement bunker, awaiting his salvos, his threats of attack. How can we face the custom sheitel macher?

have a heart tuv. you're destroying neshomois. YOU ARE NOT CREDIBLE.

By preventing all the sisters to buy custom sheitels, you are promoting znus. YOU R a Rosho. The women will be afraid to go to mikveh. Mamzerim will be born. You may be stupid, but you are NOT doing the correct thing.
YOU ARE NOT CREDIBLE.

SEE, I'VE PROVED MY POINT. I WON. CHECKMATE.

You are infantile, tuvya, if you think the police department, the fbi, government agencies etc. will ignore these claims in today's political climate, especially with media attention. But, you know this to be true. You are trying to ignore reality, hide facts, protecting the innocent bystanders, the families of choshuva yidden, the innocent and the guilty. yu may mean well, but your tactics are not the ways of Toireh, maybe "daas Toireh," but not truth. Instead of investing your efforts to stopping the meglomaniac whose name is hidden, the liar whose stories are verifiable, the coward, who spoke out when virtually everyone else lacked the will, spoke to the powers who would get something done, which is more than we say about the community moisdois tuvyeedle represents. TUVYA IS NOT CREDIBLE.

Anonymous said...

tuvya is proud to represent "daas Toyrah." We are not surprised. Rav Shteinman represents daas toyreh precisely because he's completed removed from the world. In his own yeshiva, he was virtually ignored until after the petirah of Rav Shach when the agudah was very needy of a new figurehead. So, this is daas Toyreh, tuvya's answer to the problem. He is not stupid. He is working closely with the agudah. He is representing all the moisdois. He is their savior, their tzaddik, their good guy. But, let's imagine he outs uoj, and the toireh velt no longer wants uoj's money or children and grandchildren, a shandeh.

what if uoj goes really on crusade and like the kamtza story, exposes for the fbi, the local police, every mum. The Bais hamikdosh will be destroyed because of whom? Tuvya and his ilk.

Tuvya, a Torah Jew, rational, balanced, holy and pure, says he'll wait to out uoj until he has consulted with the gedoylim. We have two approaching senility, they might make a safe choice.

Tuvya says he will modestly take credit for his torah true ethics, unlike uoj whose families relationships with sheitel machers and other dealers throughout the five boroughs and long island will soon be simply ruined forever, tuvya claims uoj "doesn't factor other people into the equation when he needs to go ahead with something, mature and responsible people do."

I wish the same could be said about those who knew about abuse, who fostered and enabled it, and those who performed perverse acts, some of which did occur. Why doesn't Tuvya hold THEM to the same high standard he sets for himself?

Daas Toyreh is a myth. Anyone who knows what really goes on in meetings of the moetzes knows that sechel is at work there more than ruach hakoydesh or daas toyreh. They use their daas, their rational faculties, like anyone and everyone else, and in this scenario, the big problem is how to avoid further publicity. Outing uoj may well result in more.

When it's just a blog, it can be dismissed. It's just a place for lowlives, malshinim, rechilus, resha. It's assur. Stay away from the minuvalim. That will sell well in places where the internet is already ossurdik. But, if uoj marshalls federal forces against corrupt institutions and individuals, and this is the word on the street, and everyone with a vendetta can speak out, the damage of outing uoj is potentially much greater. Truth has nothing to do with this mental process. Those who have institutions to protect, financial records to hide (and there are more than a few of those) and abuses to cover over, they are thinking only of themselves, their families, their legacy, their business and survival - cloaked under the mantle of protecting klal yisroel.

Who is the bigger lowlife? The fakers or the fat cats who crush without mercy those who complain.

Tuvya is much weaker than he thinks. COLPA isn't ready to defend politically unpopular broad investigations. All moisdois have what to fear from the IRS.

Daas Toyreh will decide who the next korban should be.

Anonymous said...

By threating to "expose" UOJ, Tuvya is diverting attention from the real focus of this blog and its sincerely concerned readers, which is the rooting out of child molesters and abusers. To the extent that UOJ may have posted hurtful things, well, it's his blog and that is his right; the (civil) law is on his side here, whether or not you like what he is doing. At one point, I believed that Tuyva was sincere in his desire to confront abuse, but this diversion makes me question his motives. By obsessing over UOJ's identity, he has turned this effort into a sideshow, and the outing of UOJ the main event, wasting time and energy that could be much better spent investigating the alleged abusers (and even finding them innocent, if that is the case) and bringing the guilty ones to justice. What a shame.

Anonymous said...

l'myseh, uoj, if tuvya mammish outs a name already outed elsewhere, what difference does that make?

Fact: Another anonymous blogger can easily take your place. What will they do then? Threaten no shidduchim? Everything is b'yad Hashem. The existence of your blog in the first place is His. If u are serious about your mission, in or out, you will pursue truth and you will win because government agencies will be delighted to support your efforts. Whoever bucks the system, reveals corruption, misuse of public funds etc. will find supporters. Certain hasidic villages may threaten violence. Yeshiva bochurim are eligible for the draft, but if they think the oilam hatoirah protects abusers, they will quickly lose sympathy, as they have. Outing uoj creates a newsworthy story regardless and that will bring everything out into the open. I hope the gedoylim sleep well.

John Q. Publicstein said...

My anonymous critic, a harsh anti-Tendlerite no doubt, is speaking nonsense. Wosner's psak was certainly based on plenty of accusations and tapes. But he never spoke to Tendler to get his side. I don't know if he tried, maybe he did and failed. In any event, it remains undisputed that never has there been a full hearing of both sides in that case. In fact, my understanding is that tapes were promised of Tendler in corpus delecti and the only tapes that have been played up there have been far less than that - inappropriate for sure, but not of the man "in the act."

You see, the problem with all the anti-Tendlerites is that they are so touchy and get so worked up about the issue that they start to sound like lunatics and make no sense. Suggest an alternative perspective and all they do is yell to avoid answering the real issues.

If this poster had read my entire post, I clearly stated that a kol is enough to act upon. But that does not address the issue of guilt - it only serves to protect the community at large. The accuser can still be a liar (or speaking the truth) even after you remove the rabbi from his position. (No pun intended)

Dratch did not address the issue of guilt, plain and simple, and his essay was therefore a dime short of a dollar change. To suggest otherwise just means that some angry guy who owns a house in New Hempstead that's worth less today then the dayy he bought it read this blog and got pissed off because I posted objectively.

Anonymous said...

Oy vey, he went to Touro Law school. What is that, #345 out out 345 in the country?

Anonymous said...

Thinking out loud (because daas Toyreh won't allow my blogspot to become a sewer full of leitzonim, lowlives, nivul peh, lashon hara, rechilus, bizonyonois, bittul, bizui etc.)

"Here's where I stand now. Expose the man; Bring him down." Is this znus?
Fact: Tuvyeedle is not credible.

"Is it possible that I am influenced by other emotional factors? Might pride and arrogance play a role here? After all I publicly promised a major expose. Might a desire for revenge play a role here? After all, this idiot has insulted those who I revere and has said many many stupid things."

This is why tuvee wants das toyra to validate him: revenge. Why? "he has insulted those who I revere (buy why did he insult them, tuvya? To be mevazeh talmidei chachomim? Was that really what started this? UOJ got up in the morning to say, who can i be mevazeh today? Sounds dubious to me. He had his reasons, no? He has said some stupid things. We all do, not everyone who says stupid things is a lowlife. I'm defending coarse speech. Nobody can really defend vulgarity, but free speech, outside of ayatollahland (which sometimes resemebles agoodaland) is a good thing.

And who wins? Those who make the most rational arguments for the public good backed up by facts. Disprove the allegations made by multiple witnesses. This you can do rather easily in bais din, most of which are biased and ineffective, but try your luck with a jury of your peers, which the Agudah soon will do.

You must bring him down? Why? Because uoj's honesty is hurting toirah moisdois? Why no introspection during the neun teg? Where is the cry from Toireh moisdois begging mechila for anything? They never do anything wrong because they are daas toyra and such daas toira isn't credible either.

They certainly aren't menuvalim. They are tzaddikim who never blog. They speak no lashon hara, are never mekaneh, seek no revenge. The hanhola is always right, never wrong. Right? TUVYA IS NOT CREDIBLE.

But, we don't have to take him down or expose him. He's not a bad guy. He's a flatbush dude doing the bidding of his masters. He is a loyal dog, wagging his tail, feeling important to be talking to the gedoylim.

Fact: if the Ribbono shel Olam wants abuses stopped, He will not silence uoj but empower him. If He wants coverups, the internet will break down and self destruct.

Hashem will, indeed, point us in the right derection.

Anonymous said...

Is Tuvya Jackie Mason?

He is very funny.

"We are all influenced by our past history; We are all tainted; and we all cannot make a completely objective decision. And I include myself.

So, what do I do? I need to go beyond myself to discuss this issue thorougly with an objective person. Like all sincere jews throughout the ages, I will be discussing this with Daas Torah.. "

"Daas Torah is an objective person." I could not find him listed in the phone book.

Daas Torah is thoroughly objective BECAUSE, TUVYA SAYS, HE IS NOT a rosh yeshiva. Did you hear that, hanhola? Did you hear that, gaiva of the plain? Did you hear that in Lakewood? Did you hear that in Telz? Did you hear that in Brooklyn? On behalf of the hanhola, unless the outcome is in our personal, selfish best interest, we are insulted. We are daas Toirah and once we're finished with him, we'll never fully trust him again: TUVYA IS NOT CREDIBLE.

"Daas Torah is like all sincere Jews throughout the ages" whose villages were attacked by Crusaders.

Daas Toyreh knows that the enemies of Toirah, for they all must be reshoyim gemurim if they don't like us for any reason, especially if they have reason, must be destroyed.

This is what motivates Tuvya and his herd: the extirpation of non believers, the destruction of imperfect clones (unless they send us money in which case we are pleasantly surprised). Their purpose in life is to support us, whether we're right or wrong.

Amen.

Anonymous said...

On behalf of the Elk Club,

Tuvya says, "UOJ and his ilk mock this concept (as they mock everything else) because they fail to understand it. Really?

They fail to understand that an individual has blind spots and is tainted... that those who are immersed in Torah are protected to a greater extent from outside irrelevant influences." This means, of course, tv, newspapers, radio broadcasts, uncensored news, the internet. Great. Our leaders are well informed. They read hamoidia.

He opines, "even though gedolim can (and sometimes do) make mistakes, they are the means of arriving at the most objective way of approaching a situation." I missed that. Could someone help me and clarify the meaning of that sentence? Does it mean that they learn from the experience and try not to repeat the mistake?

A certain rosh yeshiva who is now in the oilam ho-emes was known as a big baal gaivo. He was one of the gedoilim. When he was caught in a public situation acting very selfishly, even to the point of being mean to other yidden, the establishment had to beg people not to repeat what they had seen. They kept it out of the newspapers, and a newsworthy event it was, of international interest. This was before the internet. To my knowledge, this gadol never changed afterwards, was not more "objective." He was the same flawed human being who happened to rule a moisad and who knew how to learn. Tuvya's claim is weak, if not patently false.

The ones he points to as possessing daas Toira, if asked l'halocha if kanoyim poigim boi applies in this situation, had better ask themselves what brought it about, whether enabling abuse in yeshivois is a bigger kiddush hashem. A lot depends upon how questions are raised. If tuvya only asks about the masked menace threatening the agudah and all of toyra true klal yisroel, he may get a dispensation for holy war, es laasois, but by ignoring the underlying cause, he discredits himself and the masters he serves who disdain this blog as much as they fear it.

Anonymous said...

hey, uoj, tuvya will be speaking to the ultimate authority. Who is dat? De rebbe in Elmont? Moshiach?

Who is the gadol's gadol today? Rav Shteinman has been crowned king of the agudah parades.

I would say that if any so called gadol hador wants to shut you up, he should be prepared to hire every rebbe so accused. This will be a great kovoid for the agudah and for klal yisroel.

Anonymous said...

Halacha is truth; daas toireh is a myth. To out pipple for nuttin is a terribel avairo. To out people who have done wrong is their kapparah, and certainly better than drowning them in a mikvah.

UOJ, there's so much garbage in the toyreh velt, it will be interesting to see whether the ribbono shel olam wishes to clean house or not. Your enemies are shtark. Let's see how daas toyreh plays and let us see how they deal with the court case they are facing: truth, justice, the daas toireh way.

Anonymous said...

As someone who visits this site on occasion may I offer a few comments:
1) Perhaps UOJ's methods are not always the most tactful, but what the heck is the matter with all of the religious fundamentalists who want to behead UOJ? UOJ is highlighting a terrible crime that has occurred in our community and the cover up has been 1000 times worse than the crime!!!
2) Those who say these matters should be dealt with privately apparently have their heads in the sand. Haven't many tried to deal with this matters privately to no avail?
3) If these religious fanatics who want to silence UOJ really follow Da'as Torah, why are they on the internet at all? Isn't there a ban on the internet?

Maybe I can't fathom all of this because I'm not from Brooklyn.

Anonymous said...

Tuvya shared another fascinating insight after revealing his extensive email communications, censored for none to see, in his last papal address:

"What strikes me is that all these people have an agenda."

Tuvya is very smart. He figured that out.

The Agudah has no agenda. The yeshivois embaressed by claims, publicity, have no agenda. Only the ones who support open discussion of serious community problems are accused of harboring personal agendas. I have news for you tuvya: everybody has an agenda, especially you, the kanoi of klal yisroel, king of the kongs, ding of the dongs.

Did you know that the gedoylim are in many cases related by marriage? Are they objective about their relatives?
Of course.

Tuvya is not credible because he silences views other than his own. He is protecting the image of camp agudah, the agudah, the yeshivois who more than eretz yisroel represent der Eybishter. Whatever they do is right or they'll show you a sevara why it should be, could be, must be. avadeh.

A siyum every night, fleish in every pot and a sick yeshiva system for the enrichment and elevation of a few. As long as you own the real estate and money keeps flowing in, who cares about a blog? You can threaten, you can bully, you can protect all that is sacred to the frum. but, fee, frei, foe, frum, the bigger problem is the judicial arena which the hanhoila cannot control. With luck, moshiach will come before then and all our problems will go away.

gross said...

Plotsker:

A picture is truly worth a thousand words. You're a two-bit nothing with an inferior education. You will continue to fail. Period. Exposing the identity of UOJ (which I don't believe for a second it is possible for you to do) means nothing. It will not "bring him down."

In the end the truth always prevails and the masses (who until now were treated like asses) will rise up against the wicked "leadership" you claim to protect. The world is changing around us and the fake, yeshivish propaganda is not going to work any longer.

Anonymous said...

Tuvya says:
"Fact: I am 99% sure that I have this man nailed."

I am 99 percent sure that the hanhola is scared. They have to be. They have much to lose. IT STARTS with enrollments, continues with money and prestige. Don't forget prestige. The prestige in yeshivois is all l'shem shomayim, lekovoid hatoirah and Tuvya stands up. He is a good soldier, was a good bochur, has fine children, pays full tuition, or almost. He knows people who can help. He's frum. We need money. We need bodies. WE ARE THE OYLOM HATOYRA.

or at least we think we are, and our parents thought we were. The next doyr sees the challenges ahead. If our reputation is sullied, our bank accounts depleted, our real estate in jeopardy, we will blame uoj. Even if it weren't the nine days, we'll blame him for that too. Blaming someone else always makes us feel better, almost as good as a large check.

Anonymous said...

From the law firm's website:
Contact an unpaid sales commission lawyer at our firm today. We can meet with you and determine the best way in which to proceed with your case, keeping your best interests in mind. Let us work to make the law work for you.

What does the agudah have to say about that? Do you think it's EMES? I hope you rot in jail.

Anonymous said...

Tuvya teaches that "klal yisrael views as daas torah those who study for years and decades the undiluted Torah and refine their charater traits and personal biases."

What is the undiluted torah? torah without outside influences, goyishe thinking, chochmas yevonis? What if the yeshivois grant b.t.l's, hand out transcripts, like Lakewood does. Are they still undiluted if they've bowed to the goyishe velt and look like and act like, loi olaynu, kolleges? America is trayf. There can be no Daas Toyreh here. Anyone who has set foot on a bus in yerusholayim has come into contact with the shmutz of the street. They become undiluted. What therapy can gedoylim apply to reverse the situation outside of living in a cave? Yes, mein kinder, a frum opthomalogist can dilute their eyes. With their pupils diluted, they chazer, and sharpen their pure toyreh minds. The gemora tells us how.

how?

The answer, of course, is that followers need leaders and leaders tend to be idealized. Sometimes, they have clay feet. Not our yeshiva. We're different.

Auto Report World Editors said...

Let's look at Tuvya's credibility (recognizing, as one poster said, that Tuvya is trying to make UOJ the issue to deflect from corruption in the frum velt).

If you scroll down on his blog, you will see a post from Tuvya addressed to me. The tone was respectful and without being immodest, I believe that he was concerned that some of my comments here and on his own blog were thoughtful and persuasive. He appealed to me to stop supporting UOJ because he is "LIAR". He initiated a dialogue.

My ego is not unsubstantial, so I joined the dialogue and commented on that post. What resulted was actually rather heartwarming. In addition to the usual frummie personal attacks and outrage at my posts (a couple of which I admit pushed past the envelope in terms of good taste), there was the beginning of some actual exchange of ideas. Not with Tuvya, but with some of his commenters, and for the most part the discussion was respectful. Words of Torah were exchanged. One commenter even noted the irony of "warm" discussions surrounding someone like me, a UOJ supporter. I was kind of tickled and thought I sensed at least a little bit of Jewish love. Sure, there was plenty of back and forth with the usual quotient of frummie narishkeit, but I was optimistic. The comment thread grew to over 100 posts.

Then Tuvya shut down comments with the following post:

Upon reading through these comments, many of them were clearly inappropriate. Now, I am fine with the typical Tuvya is good, Tuvya is bad, UOJ is good, UOJ is bad talk. In fact, I like that because the more dialouge in the comments section, the more hits we get, hence the more influence and popularity. What I am not fine with is identifying names of victims or accusers, bizayon of talmidei chachamim, degradation of Dovid Hamelech, and unrefined talk of sensitive tzniyus topics.

Note the "I like... more influence and popularity" passage. Here we see some of Mr. T's personal motivations. He's not just upset because we criticized his cult leaders, he's upset because UOJ is a bigshot and he's not.

The "unrefined talk of sensitive tzniyus topics" btw, was my way of discussing the fact that we are all morally ambivalent, capable of both good and evil, mitvahs and aveirahs. I said that Tuvya must be capable of anal sex with another man (and that's how I put it, hardly "unrefined) - that he has to be because HaShem gave him the mitzvah of not doing it. All of the lo ta'asehs were giving to frum Jews too.

If my posts were "unrefined", than the gemara's discussion of bia sh'lo k'darka is unrefined.

So, regarding T's credibility, he claimed to have wanted a dialogue, but when he got an actual free exchage of ideas, he disabled comments and hid that exchange.

Let's see, he goes back on his word and is concerned about having influence and popularity. Now who was it that was accused of megalomania and lying?

Sometimes, when I'm waxing optimistic, I think that T and UOJ are playing good cop bad cop, both trying to stir up interest in the subject of molestations, with UOJ stirring the pot, and T rallying frummies to attack UOJ, frummies that at least have to confront the fact that there are molesters. Tuvya has indeed posted some factual material about the subject. However, the fact that he would even threaten to out UOJ, all the while he openly acknowledges how that act will damage UOJ's family members, is just such classic frummie art of personal destruction that I believe that Tuvya is indeed a member of the cult of gedoyoyoylim.

More Jews have been kept Jewish by shul candymen than by all of today's gedoyoyoylim combined.

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

BULLETIN! BULLETIN! BULLETIN!


I reached the Establishment's UOJ, and asked for a phone interview. He agreed to speak with me only if he was able to verify my identity.

I OUTED MYSELF to him and my father. He actually knows my family well and my father and him have a mutually respectful relationship. He called my father and the two of them had a nostalgic, warm conversation.

So I will have a phone interview with him motzei Shabbat. He agreed that I may take notes and publish the "on the record" comments. I am told by my father that he is a walking encyclopedia, and probably one of the few people around with real in-depth contacts in the entire Yeshiva world. He says he now knows why the Establishment chose to select him as their whipping boy. He promises a frank and detailed interview.

If you read one post on my blog, this is the one to read! Stay Tuned! I will post the interview sometime on Sunday!

steve said...

I knew it, this Tuvya is all talk. He's a liar, coward and an imbecile. UOJ, please stop giving this idiot attention. I don't care if you don't post this comment, just read it and think about it. Let's stick to the issues at hand. No more Tuvya comments!

Anonymous said...

daddy can be proud of his boy. He is choshuv. Money talks.

Walking encyclopedias walk. Whoopie doo.

He can speak to Rav Shteinman too. Lucky him.

But, we don't get it, uoj. Don't they want to silence you, force you to resign, go back to the family business, stop bopping them over the head. They're conducting internal investigations of their own. Someone found an old lunchbag from Rabbi Sherer's days in a filing cabinet. The secretaries are busy.

The Roshei Yeshiva are being mispallel for klal Yisroyel, their tefiloys piercing the heavens. They want you gone.

Can't wait to see the post on tuvyah's blog too.

right?

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

BULLETIN! BULLETIN! BULLETIN!

POSTED ON JEWISH SURVIVORS



Friday, July 28, 2006
Rabbi Dovid Cohen Moves To Chicago - Will he be working Closely with Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst?

Rabbi Dovid Cohen, formerly of New York, is the new Administrative Rabbinic Coordinator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council (CRC) . He is scheduled to begin in mid-August.

In the past Rabbi Cohen was connected to Ohel. An organization that "has been handling" cases of sex abuse for years. Many survivors have said that Rabbi Cohen has been an expert in silencing their voices. I wonder if HaRav Dovid Cohen will continue this tradition in Chicago?

I can't help but wonder if the move is so that he can be a part of the new beit din that's forming to address cases of sexual violence? I've heard rumors that another member of this "so called" beit din is Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst. Fuerst who is the Chicago rabbinic expert on sexual abuse in Chicago wrote the following letter in support of Rabbi Mordechai Tendler. Rabbi Fuerst mentions in the letter that he "looked into the allegations" and found them to be false. Once again I have to ask, what education and training does a rabbi have in investigating sex crimes? While he was in rabbinic school did they teach him to collect forensic evidence or how to conduct a victim sensitive interview?

Instead of creating a "special beit din" to investigate allegations, the rabbis in Chicago and around the world NEED to be working with law enforcement. There should be NO special beit din. They will just recreate a smooth way to continue doing what they have been doing for centuries.

Look at the way Fuerst handled the case of the Kosher Butcher - Meyer Miller and the case of the Hillel Rabbi - Rabbi Tzvi Wainhaus.


posted by Jewish Survivors Of Sexual Violence at Friday, July 28, 2006

Anonymous said...

What a joke this Tuvya is. Daas Torah? Did he ask for Daas Torah when he started his blog?

Anonymous said...

UOJ
R U admiting now that Ronnie is NOT Tuvya/Shmuel??

What exactly are u referring to whe you say the 'establishment' UOJ??

Please Explain.
Thanx

Anonymous said...

We won't tell you what questions to ask, uoj, you know the delicate points to raise.

We understand that the off the record session will remain just that: everything you say will be repeated back to his handlers.

We understand that the real point of this exercise is that facing a lawsuit, seeing that you have information they might benefit from, it's easier to use sugar than a stick. My guess: Tuvyabrittanica will suck up to you - if only because you represent money, contacts and power - and the bottom line will be, how can you hang our dirty laundry in the street? The gedoylim say you are hurting revenues. You must stop. You should desist. Your last blog should announce that you will work closely with the Agudah to do goodah for klal Yisroel and we'd like to honor you at our next dinner. (maybe not).

We'll do and will do and have done everything we possibly can do to help victims. Chinuch Atzmai is raising funds for another moisad for victims in Eretz Yisroel. You never need visit it, but we'll put your name up on the building if you can make this Scandahl goi, oivei.

Forget the luxury condominiums on ocean parkway.

Forget you ever heard of waterbury. Keep a low profile and we'll leave you alone or we'll get the gedoylim to be mispallel for you, you know, "be monay-a brocho..." a serious threat. We haven't even gotten started.

We want to do the right thing. Of course, arayois are assur. We don't do such things. We are normal. We don't cheat. We are honest. We are perfect. It's you that's the problem...

ain navi b'iro. Who can know what the future will bring, but at least tuvya won't out the wrong person. He'll have to out and go after daddy and if daddy is on your team, more credit to him, less vitriol for them.

Good Shabbes, uoj. As they say, "you've done good."

I hope that the results of your interview are more than words, that we will hear about the gedoylim racing around in a frenzy trying to find the truth of these allegations and taking appropriate action. Otherwise, they're going to lose the cases against them (are they so much better than the Catholic hierarchy?) and their credibility is gone.

This, you've done to them, uoj, and we owe you applause. In time for Menachem Av, may we see nechomois rabbois, safe bois.

Mottel Kaminetzky said...

There was a reference to the "rebbe in Elmont". Does that mean that "Tuvya" learned in Ateres Yaakov by R' Yitzchok Knobel?

Lenny Glass said...

John Q. Publicstein is full of crapola.

I must admit I was initially taken in by him as his posts were until now very convincing and eloquent.

He states that Tendler, even if he engineered the no-show, never appeared before a beis din.

FALSE.

Tendler appeared before a beis din of not 3, but seven Monsey rabbonim and roshei yeshiva who found him to be a pathetic liar. Some of the rabbonim like Rabbi Orbach went on record to say that they couldn't believe the outrageous lies coming out of Tendler's mouth and how Tendler made a complete fool out of himself.

Because this first emerged publicly in a Jewish Week interview, rabbonim from Brooklyn and elsewhere made phonecalls to verify the story. Rabbis Wosner, Orbach and others stand by their findings on Tendler.

I have never seen any indication that Weiner was acquitted as Publicstein asserts. Show us a link.

Un-Orthodox Jew said...

Shmuel,

I am 99% sure Yushka was nailed. Not 100% because I wasn't there, but people said that Yushka was nailed so I believe it. Now, I don't know these people personally that told me Yushka was nailed, but billions of people believe Yushka was nailed, so who am I to disagree.

EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW YUSHKA WAS NAILED, BILLIONS OF PEOPLE SAID SO!

Auto Report World Editors said...

I just had a bizarre thought.

What would be the response in terms of the following groups' opinions of Judaism and Jewish leaders if Torah U'Mesorah and Agudah called a press conference and stated that they know now that there is a problem with pedophile teachers and rabbis, that regardless of the extent of the problem it is of utmost concern because of possible harm to even one child, that they recognize that they and other Jewish institutions in the past have failed the community terribly, and that to regain safety for tinokot shel bait rabbanan they will now institute all of UOJ's suggested recommendations?

Secular Jews
Reform & Conservative Jews
Frummies
The UOJ Crowd - concerned and/or disaffected observant Jews
School Executives
Roshei Yeshiva

Would the image of Torah and Jews as *orr lagoyim be improved?



*(in distinction to orr la bruins)

ronnie said...

UOJ, since I have some credentials in this area, please allow me, if you will?


EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW YUSHKA WAS NAILED, BILLIONS OF PEOPLE SAID SO!

I know you were engaging in wordplay,it's the getting up and going for a shpatzir three days later part that we dispute.

The question is would Moshe Rabbeinu feel comfortable sending his children to today's yeshivas?

Anonymous said...

or lagoyim, ronnieschreiber, have you lost your mind? We don't care about the goyim unless they'll help us get vouchers/pellgrants/free milk, cheese, books, whatever. Or lagoyim, what planet are u from?

The Moetzes is meeting in advance of tuvya's interview to give the encyclopedia all the answers he needs to any question posed, and quite a few questions too.

Then, we'll try and slip everything under the rug, find out the names of the victims, intimidate them, buy them off, whatever is cheaper because our honorees will be pledging less if they think we'll be paying goyim more.

Here we are, looking over our shoulders for new chumras, new meshugass together with the old to rebuild camp agudah. It's a shaila if you can accept money from goyim but gaiva of the plain knows it's mutar. We have to think about preventing pogroms. That's daas Toyreh in the us of a.

Good luck, uoj. Don't cave in to the cavemen.

Anonymous said...

reb moishe rabbeinu would be a member of the moetzes and could accompany rav shteinman on the parades.

hmmmm.

He would make an excellent honoree.

Anonymous said...

uoj, tuvya discredits all of your allegations based on the confusion of a few.

as if, because there's confusion in some minds, ner israel is off scot free, camp agudah is vindicated, ytt is ready for its next dinner and rebuilding campaign. Pathetic innuendo from a premiere politician, an encyclopedic whiz at name dropping in private life, in gut mit dem.

Don't trust him, uoj. His agenda has been stated: allow a recognized rav to censor every rant, enlist a professional from touro's medical college in the west to monitor your blood pressure, only then will tuvya and the moetzes and the hanhola give you reshus to live.

They will only do the right things if they are forced to. You are forcing them to. You are a positive influence on the frum community. If anyone needs policing, it is they, and police they are getting.

tuvya, ultrarationalist which you are (attempting to pass yourself as) you are as weak as your defenses, and if daas Toireh stands with the moisdois, as they are and will, they are doomed. The President of the United States is not on their side. Does this mean we do or do not recite the mi sheberach?

Erev Tisha Bov, and this is the tragedy.

Anonymous said...

uoj, no i am not uoj.

this proves how little you know.

doesn't this prove something?

it proves that smart yeshiva guys are a menace when they use their "chochmois" which they know are even greater than anyone else thinks, to advantage.

But, the gedoylim are on tuvya's side. A little dust in his hands is a mighty army. His tefiloys and toirah are his banner. B'charbi u-b'kashti.. are tefillah. WHat else is there to battle uoj?

we'll try chanifah. That always works. How do you think I know as many people as I know, and so well? This is why they like me. Not only do I tow the party line, work for the klal, represent the OYlom, but I am efficient, know how to sound even handed when privately I rage. I am angry. I look down on the lowlives. They are low, very low, much lower than me.

I am pretty great, and I will tell the same to uoj. It works with everybody else, the same old tricks should work again.

Chanifah. That's the key. Doron. He has money. He doesn't want more plaques. Toireh? He thinks he's it, misguided soul. Tefillah. That's our only prayer. The gedoylim personally will be mispallel and beg that he stop, desist, stop killing the golden goose, the source of the world's existence, the am Hashem. The rhetoric is good. I really mean it. If he doesn't listen, forget about nailing him, we'll find a way to screw him, but first we'll get reshus which won't be hard to get. We already have it. We must wait and bide our time, at least until after the court case. Remember. Keep calm. Be gracious. Smile. Try to make him laugh. Try to take advantage. Win. Otherwise, scare him off. If this doesn't work, we'll call in satmar.

John Q. Publicstein said...

Lenny Glass, try taking a course in reading comprehension before being critical. I never said Tendler never appeared before a bais din. And if you don't know Weiner was acquited, does that make the statement false? Do your own legwork - it's a public record well reported in the media.

Anonymous said...

BH, b'h, is a smart guy, a professional. Whoever badmouths him doesn't know him well.

As to the real tuvyah, if uoj is right, let the Agudah hire him to be their attorney of choice. Let's see if he and zwee and bb can win. An uphill fight with puny minds against the forces of truth.

Anonymous said...

GOOD CATCH!

You gotta be fair and admit that you made a mistake with Editor.

Tuvya/Shmuel/Shlomo is not our old The Editor.

Also, since when can you track IP addresses on Blogger?

Achakeh Lo B'chol Yom said...

EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW YUSHKA WAS NAILED, BILLIONS OF PEOPLE SAID SO!
************************
so what? billions of people believe he was/is the messiah. Are we supposed to believe that too??

Anonymous said...

when you imterview the "outed uoj"
ask him if he ever even heard of the blog

Auto Report World Editors said...

achakeh,

UOJ was referring to Tuvya's claim that he had UOJ's identity "99% nailed". Perhaps your yeshiva's English department was weak, or perhaps you are just dense, but UOJ was essentially saying that Jew's should believe Tuvya's claims about as much as we should believe those of Christianity.