EVERY SIGNATURE MATTERS - THIS BILL MUST PASS!

EVERY SIGNATURE MATTERS - THIS BILL MUST PASS!
CLICK - GOAL - 100,000 NEW SIGNATURES! 75,000 SIGNATURES HAVE ALREADY BEEN SUBMITTED TO GOVERNOR CUOMO!

CLICK!

Thursday, November 19, 2009

It is highly hypocritical of Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz to be advising adults who were sexually abused as children!

Steve writes:

In response to the Motty Borger tragedy, Rabbi Horowitz, together with Dr. Twerski, wrote an article about the importance of sexual abuse victims to seek help and not to keep their pain inside. It is highly hypocritical of Rabbi Horowitz to be advising adults who were sexually abused as children. Rabbi Horowitz was a vocal opponent of the Child Victims Act, even going on public radio to voice his opinion. The Child Victims Act would be the only recourse for these past victims. Nobody will believe these victims years after the abuse if not for the possibility of them seeking legal action. Rabbi Horowitz along with Vito Lopez, David Niederman, the Agudah and the Catholic Church have worked to insure that these victims are forever muzzled.

You want these poor victims to seek professional help? What kind of closure are you offering them? Their molesters will be protected indefinitely thanks to your lobbying. The community continues to shun these victims and label them as "damaged goods". What incentive do they have to come forward and risk being exposed, thereby ruining shidduchim prospects for themselves and their families. Until the stigma is removed from sexual abuse victims and until we stop protecting the molesters, there is no reason for these victims to speak out. Without any sense of closure and without the community's love, understanding and acceptance, there is no psychotherapist that can help these victims. The first step to healing is passing the Child Victims Act, over Rabbi Horowitz' objections and over the rest of the axis of evil's objections. Let's make it happen!

Amen!

A MUST SEE - AVAILABLE AT BLOCKBUSTER.COM FOR $9.99



80 comments:

steve said...

UOJ,

Thanks for the post. I really would like to see what the chevra's opinion on this important subject is. Rather than copying and pasting unrelated material, or bickering about Shmarya, let's have some open and serious discussions. We cannot allow another tragedy like that of Motty Borger or Shua Finkelstein to happen again. We need to pool our ideas and resources so that we can win this war against darkness and evil, together.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

I agree Steve; rabbosai I'll only put up comments on this post related to the Borger tragedy/child abuse -- and the above article Steve is referring to!

Please everyone cooperate.

Todah..

Hypocrite? said...

Steve:

Many months ago, when the legislation was being discussed, Rabbi Twersky was asked to weigh in with his opinion of the Markey Bill. It was a comment on rabbihorowitz.com, and I think I remember the crux of it. He felt that the bill missed the point, not that it was bad. He was neither supporting it, but also not against it. He said it would do absolutely nothing to stop a molester from continuing his evil trade. The financial burden of yeshivos, if that were to happen, did not matter much, and he simply did not care about that. His position was that the real focus needed to be on identifying molesters of the present, not the long past ones. He also claimed, in disagreement with the advocacy groups, that legal stuff, civil lawsuits and criminal prosecution, do not deter others from engaging in this type of behavior. While it helps the urge to get revenge, it does help the victim deal with the trauma. The molester knows that this behavior is wrong, criminal, and a violation of halacha. He just lives in la-la land, and is convinced that he will never get caught. There goes your deterrent.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

He said it would do absolutely nothing to stop a molester from continuing his evil trade.

*

Dead wrong - no child molestor alive, at any age, should have the ability to go on with their lives as if nothing they did to a child really matters to society.

Outrageous!

steve said...

My comment was not aimed at Dr. Twerski but at Rabbi Horowitz. Rabbi Horowitz, working as the Agudah's henchman, wrote a series of articles and went on the air publicly to lobby against the Markey bill.

Granted, Dr. Twerski decided to remain neutral. However, his comment about concentrating on present molesters instead of past molesters is ridiculous, considering the fact that child molesters never retire. Case in point, Yudi Kolko who molested a six year old child in the early part of this decade, some thirty years after he molested David Framowitz. I also disagree with him about deterrance. The one thing that these molesters fear (besides jail time), is exposure. Most of these child molesters look like respectable members of the community, complete with beard and hat. Many of them call themselves "rabbi". Exposing them for the violent criminals that they are is the strongest deterrant. Similar legislation in California and Delaware exposed over four hundred child molesters. How many will be exposed in NY once this legislation passes? How much safer will our children be? A lot safer!

Yerachmiel Lopin, blogger, frumfollies said...

normally i dont crosspost but i happened to see this on deiah ve-dibbur first.

here is what i wrote:Rabbi Twerski, if you could have been intimidated out of action by the yichus threat, what should a victim conclude. I think they will conclude 1. I will never be safe. 2. I am nothing, if someone with the Yichus of Rabbi Twerski can't or won't even suffer the shidduch risk to be assocated with me. 3. Rabbonim lie when they say they care. They let it happen but then expect me to keep quiet in therapy. . I will bet the molesters are smart enough to avoid the kids of the rabbonim and gevirim because no one who loves his own child would let his child's molester get off this way. 5. I deserve to be mistreated because I have no yichus, I come from a family of BT, or there was mental illness, or a geir, or some other problem in my family.

Rabbi Twerski and Rabbi Horowitz. I respect your writings and your menslischkeit. You are better than 95% of the rabbonim. But l'maan hashem, you know the names. Go to the police. And if your family screams shidduchim, say, a shidduch bought with the blood of a raped child is not worthy of my yichus. Do you really believe your sacred ancestors would have agreed to such terms for a shidduch.

I know many rabbonim won't see this. But you know, a whole generation will be lost if no one saves frum leadership from its own terrible mistakes. Why is there no one who will name names and promote prosecution. You know all the alternatives have failed. There is no more time to wait.

It is no longer a question of whether the community will suffer terribly from all these misdeeds. It is not even a question of how long the scandals can be delayed. It is too late to avoid scandal. It is not too late for the leadership to say chatassi and to start the tikkun.

I wrote a drashah for a Rabbi Besdin on my blog. It was the speech that some Rav should be giving. But it is fiction. I know both of you could write and deliver something much better. Please deliver that speech, name those names! Please! Please!
-----------
this issue will be my focus until after the agudah convention. I can not be there, but will be glad to contribute writing to anyone who wants to leaflet the event. I would be great if someone who was attending could put slips inside all sorts of literature or hand out bumper stickers.

steve said...

Yerachmiel,

The person who is hiding the names of the molesters is Dov Hikind. Dr. Twerski as a professional is a mandated reporter. I highly doubt that he is protecting the identities of child molesters. He has been outspoken about going to the police. The issue here is how to help the victims heal. Coming forward and exposing their molesters is the first step. Monetary compensation and community acceptance are also very important. Until we have a revolution and a total change in these ingrained attitudes, there is little one can do to alleviate their suffering.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry for saying this, but Rabbi Horowitz is protecting these creeps, ans never wants this law past.

And here is the real kicker: I have heard that his hands aint that clean.

Yes.

I know people will kick, yell, scream, and curse me, but this is what many are thinking.

Yankel Horowitz hashat to hide....

Anonymous too said...

Two comments here make preposterous allegations. One insinuates that Dov Hikind is hiding names of molesters. There are two falsehoods here. One is that many of the victims that came forward to him did so with clear conditions that he maintains confidentiality, including not reporting. He did urge these victims to make reports. The second is that he did turn over all those he could. This resulted in opening of almost 20 cases by the Brooklyn DA. Those that did not fit either of the above categories were way beyond statute of limitations. These were handled differently, since prosecution was not an option. Accusations against Dov are unwarranted.

Dr. Twerski had no connection via Dov’s project with victims or molesters. What he does in his own practice is his own business. We can be certain that he reports those cases that need to be.

The accusation against Rabbi Horowitz is simply malicious. He is not protecting anyone, and has taken a stand about reporting that is admirable. If you don’t like his position about the proposed legislation, go ahead and disagree. But to convert that disagreement into a vile accusation is low. It is easy to do this behind the cloak of being “Anonymous”, but it is nevertheless hateful. Doing this makes those of us who observe from the sidelines less supportive of the advocacy movements.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Let's cut the word games!

If Hikind knows of an adult that he has reason to believe is a danger to children, he could pass the name of the predator to the D.A. for investigation, without disclosing the name(s) of the alleged victims.

Twerski is a mandated reporter in private practice, he knows the law and from what I can tell, he's one of the good guys.

Horowitz knows better; there are child predators out there hiding in yeshivas, and the yeshiva owners know who they are, are we to believe that because these guys are old and gray, we should just focus on the "young" predators and concern ourselves only with the most recent travesties and let the old guys just enjoy their granchildren and the mizrach vant?

Let the yeshiva owners rot in jail along with the predators they covered for - including the Novominsker Rebbe whose Alzheimers is obviously in an advanced stage.

steve said...

MY RESPONSE TO RABBI HOROWITZ WHO DOES NOT WANT TO POST ANYTHING ABOUT THE MARKEY BILL:

Rabbi Horowitz,

With all due respect, the subject of the Markey Bill goes right to the heart of your article. Your article is primarily geared to adults that were sexually abused as children. As you well know, it takes several years for a victim to come to terms with what happened to him. The advice that you are giving here to seek professional treatment rings very hollow. On the one hand, you are extending your hand and telling them how much you care. On the other hand, your lobbying efforts against the legislation has effectively muzzled the victims and sent a strong message that it is more important to protect financial assets of yeshivos rather than allow them to seek legal recourse and closure. As much as you try to separate the two, it is impossible, because in order for these victims to begin a healing process, they must feel that the community and its leadership is behind them and ready to support them. The opposition from yourself and the Agudah is a slap in the face and all your "get help" advice is meaningless. The way to help these victims is: A)Working on changing the sick attitude that pervades us, that sexual abuse victims are "damaged goods" when it comes to shidduchim. B)Working together with the JBAC to provide financial support, medical support and moral support. C)Identifying the child molesters and working to bring them to justice. If they are past the SOL, they must be exposed and removed from regular contact with children. D)Supporting legislation that will give these victims an opportunity to identify their molesters and to seek restitution from all that abused them.

As the poster above mentioned, it is very expensive for these victims to seek therapy. We as a community are all guilty for allowing the situation to fester for decades. We have created an environment where child molesters have been free to molest our children at will without any consequence. The Noveminsker Rav mentioned at the Agudah dinner the importance of "Tikkun Haovar". We are all mechuyav in this. The way to begin this tikkun is the four steps I listed above. We must establish a fund that will cover all the mental health expenses. It's the least we can do.

RICO! RICO! RICO! said...

David Framowitz and Joel Engelman should be encouraged to unravel and expose Orthodox Rabbinic racketeering. The Satmar, Torah Umesorah (Agudah) rabbis who with impugnity put children in harms way by weaving a network of deception and threats ran their own Jewish racket. They use threats and fraudulent Rabbinic Courts to enforce that legal issues never see the light of day. The Rabbis of these organizations have employers terminate the contracts of parents of the victims who push the issue.

Yanky Horowitz is an Agudah turd who wants to have his place with them. It's high time for a FEDERAL RICO INDICTMENT. David and Joel bring pride back to the Jewish people. Let your voices be heard by people who can do something.

To Hell with Vito Lopez and his David NIDDAHman. To Hell with Lefkowitz/Patterson chummy affair with Agudath Israel of America to thwart legislation. Skip the New York State level. It's time to aim for the stars. GO CALL THE FEDS, THEY'LL LOVE IT.

Anonymous said...

UOJ,

Why are you not screaming and yelling for victims of Borger to come forward the same way you did with Kolko?

It makes some of us think that you had a personal vendetta against Margo and YTT.

We need you to go after Borger the same way. It should be headlining your posts for the next month. Actively look into this instead of telling Yerachmiel that if he has something you will then tsake care of it. That is very weak, my friend.

This may be a bigger story than Kolko.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

We need you to go after Borger the same way.....

*

Well " WE" --- I taught the world how to do it, I need "YOU" and all the other circumcized "YOUs" - to do your fair share!

I've got a great life to live -- knowing that I will leave a legacy that actually accomplished something for Klal Yisroel -- with no dinners, no plaques, no thanks...just me and Hakodosh Boruch Hu to reckon with! What more gratification can one person ask for?

It's high time that ALL honorable members of the community partake in this Godly mission --- protecting our children and the generations from emotional tragedy, and for them having a shot at an enjoyable and fullfilling existence, serving Hashem with dignity!

skip markey said...

Don't think that just because the SOL has expired that you are SOL. It is incumbent upon the communities involved to get these molesters out of the schools and revealed to the masses. If there is a case to be made that would have stood up in court, save for the SOL, what is the risk of going public? If the molester wants to sue, then the gloves are officially off and the entire history can be aired in court. It is not necessary to financially bankrupt these monsters. What is really needed is to socially bankrupt them, so that people will not wish to use the same sidewalk they are walking on. So that Rabbanim and other askanim will be forced to treat them as lepers. So that their victims can walk with heads held high and feel vindication.

If there is proof out there - start publicizing. Stand outside the schools and hand the parents leaflets. Follow the creeps home and shout outside their windows. Fill the blogs with names and details so that anyone who googles them will get an eyeful. Challenge the perverts to fight you in court - make them piss themselves in public.

lakewoder2 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Any comments that are not related to the issues of this specific post will be deleted. You may repost on the "below" post.

Thanks

Yerachmiel Lopin, blogger, frumfollies said...

1. I dont see what the choshiveh baal habos of the great lineage of anonymous ploini is shouting about. I have no complaints about being attacked on UOJ. Steve said, go after Hilkind, not Twerski. That is not an attack. It is a difference of opinion. Hilkind is a story to take up. But Borger and Twerski-Horowitz I all I can handle this week. Beside Hilkind is in Israel selling West Bank land right now. On the other hand, on Sunday, the Agudah will reveal another fake display of their sincere desire to address molesting. No doubt, saying "go to therapy" will be part of their strategy not to deal with the real problem, rabbinic corruption and communal shidduch status issues. So that stays my issue this week.

Separately, I will post more re Twerski here. I have also posted the same on my website. If you are going to the AGoon Convention feel free to copy my stuff or other pertinent stuff and pass it out or just conveniently keep leaving it around.

Yerachmiel Lopin, blogger, frumfollies said...

Steve,

I like the phrase, "child molesters never retire." This is especially true in the frum world where their old age is covered by the "Sexual Security Act." Unfortunately for children, this turns the frum world into the "Sexual Insecurity Niche" (SIN).

From JC.com said...

Suicide newlywed 'was sex-abused' By Ellen Tumposky, November 19, 2009

Motty Borger: killed himself while wife slept
A report that a Brooklyn man who committed suicide two days after his wedding was a victim of sex abuse has riled the Orthodox community.

Mordechai (Motty) Borger, 24, jumped from the seventh-floor terrace of his hotel on November 5. His bride, Mali Gutman, whom he married on Nov 3 after they met through a matchmaker, was asleep in the room.

A spokeswoman for the NYC medical examiner’s office said the death has been ruled a suicide.

Activists working to expose sex-abuse scandals in Orthodox yeshivot said that a report in the New York Post that Mr Borger had been molested as a yeshivah student was accurate — despite angry comments posted from Mr Borger’s acquaintances. The Post, quoting an unnamed source, said that Mr Borger had told his wife about the abuse after the wedding. He was seen on security video footage in the hotel lift appearing agitated.

On the internet, the story prompted a huge number of comments asking questions about Mr Borger’s private life.

“He is a survivor” of sex abuse, said Vicki Polin, founder of the Awareness Centre, a Baltimore-based coalition. She said that Mr Borger had told his parents about the abuse, but they had not sent him to therapy or gone to the police.

Mr Borger’s father, Shmuel, the founder of Amudei Shaish Boys’ Choir, has posted an audio message on the web lamenting his son’s death after a “magnificent wedding” and noting that “a chosson’s week of sheva broches” turned into seven days of mourning.

He urges people to reach out to friends and family. “Don’t be ashamed to say I’m sorry,” he advises.

Ben Hirsch of the group Survivors for Justice said that while he does not know the truth of Mr Borger’s death, he does know of several suicides as a result of sexual abuse.

“The community’s protection of the abuser can sometimes do more damage than the abuse itself.”

Asher Lipner, vice-president of the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, said that sex-abuse victims can develop post-traumatic stress disorder.

“A young man who is newly married… it could trigger flashbacks to a time when he last experienced sexual contact, which was abuse,” he said.

He said there was growing pressure on the Orthodox community to publicise sex abuse in yeshivot, adding: “There is an incredible amount of pressure put on someone not to talk about what happened. For over 40 years we’ve had in our community 100 per cent denial that the problem exists. When you have a dirty secret and you cover it up, it grows like a cancer.”

Touched by a Rebbe said...

It seems to me that the Rabbonim have great big mouths telling victims to get therapy but small wallets to support what they say. The person who was victimized on their watch years ago would love to get help but is drowning under a pile of bills and they the Rabbonim want to add another biggie to that pile. There are many Yeshivas who are wealthy and have much to protect. Doing the right thing means little. The cost of therapy for a victim and family is approximately $7000 per year. They don't feel a responsibility toward the victims who were supposed to be safe within their schools. They can establish a fund but are not man enough to do so. It is certainly easier for the victims to pay and leave them out of it. The Statute Of Limitations should mean little Markey Bill or not. The Yeshivas should be sued. If enough people come forward the older victims will be evidence for the newer ones in establishing a chain of events. They can win this way. In any case the Yeshiva will lose by defense fees and bad publicity. The very least a Yeshiva can do to help would be a private account set up to which the therapist of the victim's choice can send a bill and have it covered. This way victims can come forward anonymously and get the help they need while molesters will be exposed and dealt with. This is the cheapest approach a Yeshiva can possibly have addressing this problem. The Yeshiva can avoid being sued by at least providing some healing. A little good will goes a long way. The longer they wait, the bigger the explosion will be. The underside of the carpet has no more space. The responsibility clearly needs to be removed from the victim in getting help.

Joe Putz said...

"over the rest of the axis of evil's objections"

Amen to that.

UOJ should go revive his motto of you're either with us or against us.

Both versions of the story are correct said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/business/media/22beck.html?hp

By BRIAN STELTER
Published: November 21, 2009

Glenn Beck, the popular and outspoken Fox News host, says he wants to go beyond broadcasting his opinions and start rallying his political base — formerly known as his audience — to take action.

------------------

http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2009/11/it-is-highly-hypocritical-of-rabbi.html

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Well " WE" --- I taught the world how to do it, I need "YOU" and all the other circumcized "YOUs" - to do your fair share!

It's high time that ALL honorable members of the community partake in this Godly mission --- protecting our children and the generations from emotional tragedy, and for them having a shot at an enjoyable and fullfilling existence, serving Hashem with dignity!

12:13 PM, November 20, 2009

Sir Vivor said...

Can someone enlighten me about this talk of Borger's victims. Was that a typo or misunderstanding.

Both versions of the story are correct said...

Chaim Dovid Zweibel was arrested Shabbos evening after a crowd of hysterical Agudah Convention Fressers caused a riot at a New Jersey hotel while waiting in line at the meat carving station, police said. Zweibel, 54, the executive president at Agudath Israel of America, sent messages to over 3,000 hungry fressers that they should stuff their faces as a means to ignore picketing by supporters of UOJ and Nuchem Rosenberg - even after police tried to shut down the meat carving station. Zweibel was promoting a new niggun composed by Abish Brodt called "Anti-Markey" at the Hilton Hotel in East Brunswick, N.J.. "The fressers were just out of control," said a mother who brought her 12-year-old daughter. The fressers began lining up as early as 9 a.m. hoping to receive an extra cut of Roumanian pastrami, police and witnesses said. "People started screaming 'We love Margulies' and they ran forward and the ropes collapsed," said Ephraim Wachsmann, who was knocked down in the stampede. "Everyone was shtupping like at the Gerrorist tisch in Israel, there was no room to breathe," he said. "I was literally on the floor." But many fressers were only concerned they would lose their place in line during the scramble. "I was more worried about not getting a side of beef to fress than being trampled," said attendee Shea Fishman. Moetzes President Jacob Perlow apologized to the fressers and said a tikkun must be made for denying them brisket. "Over 10,000 fressers showed up and the police and fire marshal concluded it was an unsafe environment and prohibited the event from taking place," the statement said. Zweibel could face charges including reckless endangerment, criminal nuisance, obstruction of governmental administration and endangering the welfare of children, police said. NJ State Police say several children and adults were injured.

--

A top record label exec was arrested Friday after a crowd of hysterical teenyboppers caused a riot at a Long Island mall while waiting in line for autographs from a 15-year-old pop sensation, police said. James Roppo, 44, the senior vice president of sales at Island Def Jam Records, sent out Internet messages to over 3,000 fans that Justin Bieber was signing autographs even after police dispersed the crowd, cops said. Bieber was promoting his new album "My World" at the Roosevelt Field Mall in Garden City, L.I. "The kids were just out of control," said a mother who brought her 12-year-old daughter. The fans began lining up as early as 9 a.m. hoping to receive a yellow bracelet, a pass to meet the teen pop star - but trouble started a couple of hours before the 4 o'clock event, police and witnesses said. "People started screaming 'Justin' and they ran forward and the ropes collapsed," said Aimee Macchi, 13, who was knocked down in the stampede. "Everyone was pushing, there was no room to breathe," she said. "I was literally on the floor." But many teens were only concerned they would lose their place in line during the scramble. "I was more worried about not getting in than being trampled," said Stephanie Fiorello, 13. Bieber's record label, Island Records, apologized to fans. "Over 10,000 screaming fans showed up and the police and fire marshal concluded it was an unsafe environment and prohibited the event from taking place," the statement said. Roppo could face charges including reckless endangerment, criminal nuisance, obstruction of governmental administration and endangering the welfare of children, police said. Nassau County Police say several children and adults were injured and that Justin Bieber himself came close to being arrested before being turned away in the mall parking lot.

orthodoxjew said...

what e terrible story thanks ouj for keeping the fire going lets stop all molesters who are a threat now to children

Anonymous said...

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/sexual-harassment-is-no-1-quality-of-life-offense-on-subways-police-say/

The peak times in which women report sexual harassment or assaults on the subways are the late morning rush, roughly 8 to 10 a.m., followed by the early afternoon rush, 4 to 6 p.m.

These facts emerged on Thursday during a joint City Council hearing at which three committees — on transportation, women’s issues and public safety — summoned officials from the Police Department and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority to discuss a pervasive problem that strikes a chord with many subway riders, who say they have been ogled, groped, flashed, harassed and even attacked.

The police have arrested 412 people for sex offenses in the subway so far this year. Of that number, 71 had committed prior sexual offenses and 14 were registered sex offenders. Five of the 14 were the most serious level of sex offender, Level 3.

Lois H. Tendler (oy vey, a Tendler?), the director of government and community relations at the transportation authority, began her testimony by unwrapping a long, brown package, which turned out to be an advertisement encouraging victims to report sexual harassment on the trains.

Anonymous said...

UOJ,

When is the Jewish Version of the movie "Doubt" coming out?

Let's make sure we get it to Israel.

Anonymous said...

It costs thousands but its worth every penny:

I speak as victim of sexual abuse and knowing three others who are very close to me who were molested by different people. We all have spent thousands of dollars and have been through intense therapy and Thank God we are healthy functioning people.

There needs to be a fund or an organization that is willing to do therapy for free or at a minimal price so that people can live normal lives. It helps to try and prosecute the perpetrators, but it is just as important for the victim to be able to function and lead a happy life.

We were lucky that we realized that it doesn't matter what the cost - therapy is the most important thing. There are others who do not realize that getting therapy for sexual abuse is like breathing in clean air.

How can we spread the word to all the victims and set up funds to help this cause. As everyone knows, the longer it is left untreated the further it spreads and the deeper this problem becomes. It is really Pikuach Nefesh for both the individual who was abused and the future generations of our people. Please lets put our brains together and begin this crucial work.

Anonymous said...

http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/09/25/crimesider/entry5340048.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

The Chozeh from Chicago said...

Dr. Twerski, the following is a direct quote from you not on this site:
"Who should be paying for the therapy? I guess we might take the stand that the perp should do this, but that sounds too simple. What if the perp refuses or lacks the funds (now that we have elected to have him thrown out of his job)?"

You are 100% accurate in your assessmnt why working through a Bais Din and internal measures just won't work. We need the Court system with enforcement authority to get things done. The molester must be held liable and enforced payment even if they have to flip burgers for the rest of their miserable existence on this world.

If the man "runs out of funds" is no excuse. He took it upon himself to ruin another person's life, too bad on him to beg for mercy now.

The lame excuse of "Lo Yumsu" doesn't hold water. No one is asking for the wife to stay married to a terrorist. If she stays out of her own choice, she's a fool and deserves no pity. Children too can cut off contact with the terrorist. There are many people who would be meshadech with them. (Either because they have similar histories, or they don't believe "lashon harah")

Don't forget what the Unions accomplished just last week. They got Agri on a technicality of immigration (not enforced nowadays) which out of desperation caused fraud. They got their convictions on the fraud charges.

By standing up and placing stumbling blocks in front of those pursuing justice (i.e. blocking Markey) the victims will eventually succeed in a far more damaging way. THE WHEELS OF JUSTICE TURN SLOWLY! BUT, EVENTUALLY ARRIVE AT THE DESIRED RESULT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

By saving money on nezek, tzaar, ripui, and boshes, all you are assuring is: Eventually the community will have to pay "pidyon Shevuyim" for a Federal indictment.

Anonymous said...

There's a custom in some communities to lessen the severity of Tisha bav with jokes so they don't get sick From too much sorrow. Uoj does the same thing with these sad stories. I laughed so hard over that agudah Fressar parody.

Nikolsburger molester said...

Baruch Lebovits is derisively called the Atlantic City Rebbe because he allegedly takes kids from Brooklyn to Atlantic City, which means he crosses state lines with them.

If you were on one of those trips and have knowledge of crimes committed by Lebovits during them, contact the US Attorney for the Eastern District of New York at 718-254-7000.

evanstonjew said...

Your recommending the movie Doubt raises another element to this entire discussion. The movie shows what a determined and heroic woman can accomplish in getting rid of a superior who is a pederast. However the speech by the black mother of the victim at the end of the movie, seems to indicate that it in her judgement her son had homosexual proclivities prior to the abuse, and that the priest might have in some way been beneficial. It is not exactly clear that this is the message. I agree it is a worthwhile movie to watch and form one's own opinion.

One element that is not discussed is that these molestations were not all rapes. Isn't it possible that some of the victims feel very guilty for not protesting, running away etc.This guilt might also explain why it is so hard to get many to come forward. I have no real opinion, but the mention of the movie Doubt does raise these troubling. questions

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

EJ:

I discussed some of those issues you raised with Ellen Chenoweth when I received the video from her.

Therein lies the depth of the movie Doubt. Layer upon layer, plot on sub-plot, multiple translations of the way the characters are viewed.

The abused child was singled out by the priest because he was alone, from an unusually dysfunctional home. I believe the child's character was in need of a "father" figure, not because he had homosexual proclivities, IMO.

I believe the mother character was shallow, ala the YTT parents, willing to give up their kids to a religious authoritarian figure, rather than fight her husband and the system. She came across as she was in dire need of professional help.

At the end, Streep was in "doubt" - and it was not about what she did to get rid of the pedophile priest, but rather about a system that transferred the priest to parish after parish, every time he got caught.

I believe it's one of the most important films I've seen on this issue, that we Jews have to seriously grapple with.

I encourage every reader of UOJ to see it, and EJ, I appreciate your wonderfully analytical comments. I wish we had much more of them from our readers.

Rodef emes said...

"Both versions of the story were correct." Whoever you are, I was howling. Thanks.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Takeh great Mr. Both Versions -- Give me another one I can highlight and headline on Wednesday!

Anonymous said...

Well " WE" --- I taught the world how to do it, I need "YOU" and all the other circumcized "YOUs" - to do your fair share!

I've got a great life to live -- knowing that I will leave a legacy that actually accomplished something for Klal Yisroel -- with no dinners, no plaques, no thanks...just me and Hakodosh Boruch Hu to reckon with! What more gratification can one person ask for?

It's high time that ALL honorable members of the community partake in this Godly mission --- protecting our children and the generations from emotional tragedy, and for them having a shot at an enjoyable and fullfilling existence, serving Hashem with dignity!


I was not criticizing you, UOJ. I am just commenting as to how much you got done when you woke up the community in the kolko case with your ten makos, warnings, letters to the community.

Bottom line is that many out there are still to chicken to join you. Does that mean that you should not go full steam ahead? The Borger case is really sickening and needs to be publicized as the Kolko case was.

You are still the only hope for many.

Sir Vivor said...

My head is spinning from this Borger mess. My reaction is that someone else has to die for these sins. I just wish I knew who started this free fall.

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Horowitz:

Your COP OUT fluff piece is way off center. Agudath Israel and their flunkies can't URGE or DEMAND counseling.

What is wrong with counseling?

How about:

Dr. Aviva Weisbord (paid to cover up rape and incest as a favor for a dad she knew well).

Dr. Avrohom Mondrowitz (A quack doctor if there ever was one).

Shimon Russell

Plus...

Not all victims are strong enough to talk (Bryks victim).

You are again being Zweibel's sock puppet and NOT an advocate for victims.

When the FEDS come knocking, don't say you weren't warned.

Malach HaMovies said...

I saw the tzetlach abot Baruch Lebowitiz this Shabbos in Borough Park and Kensington.

People are very nervous that their perfect little disneyland world is being exposed.

The Agudah and their sycophants have a "tough" decison to make this weekend.

Which is the most important issue to the jewish people ?

Tuition tax credits Or a chasan jumping out of a hotel room because he was molested by people that he trusted.

You all know the answer. Stay Tuned.

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

UOJ,

You, Vicki, and others did early important work. I was inspired by you to start my efforts. Each of us can contribute. It will take many hands to carry the effort forward. We each have unique specialities, knoweledge of particular niches, research skills, legal skills, persuasive skills and so on.

I was inspired by you, UOJ to believe things could be changed and to my level of anger and disgust. A very different event got me to finally start blogging, listening to the tape of the event at Rabbi Eisenman's shul. I was of course delighted when you linked to my blog within several days of my first posting. Yeah, any readership was welcome. I was on the verge of considering polygamy to get a 50% increase in my readership. But it was validating to have you recommend my stuff.

I don't think I will stop for a long time. I may do less but this is a commitment I will not drop. But it takes so many of us to do this work.

It is also hard to be lonely in this work. In the last week, incidental to some of my efforts to get more details about Borger and Lebovits, I have had some great conversations with others who work on these issues. I can all but guarantee that a lot more will surface soon. My guess is it may take a few weeks. The stories I hear are so disturbing. Just when I think I am jaded, I hear something even more awful. But still knowing some of the others who are working on this gives me hope and encouragement. From a few lonely crusaders we are turning into a movement. I don't know if it will take 2 years or ten years but I have no doubt that we will become the majority approach in the community. I know even two days is too long for the child who will be molested over the next few days. Two years is an eternity of damage. But, as I struggle with channeling my anger I try to figure out what will work. I dont give a damn about who I insult. But I do care about shooting off to no good purpose.

But back to the figure of 2-10 years. I think that is a realistic figure for changes as big as we are talking about. Certainly we will score important victories much more quickly, a rabbi removed, a principal removed, another Rav of status saying "go to the police" and so on. I just think if we accept this is a long haul effort we might all be more aware of building up our efforts and nurturing each other.

UOJ, even if you decide you can do less than you used to, your presence, and contributions are important. We still need many more actors. You have very special abilities.

In any event, thanks again for all you have done to date.

Dr. Asher Lipner said...

I had the same exact reaction to Doubt that you did, UOJ. Baruch Shekivanti.

The most perplexing question is what is the "Doubt" at the end of Meryl Streep? I agree with you that it was a doubt in the system, ala a UOJ reader, but I would add a doubt about her faith in general.

She had just spoken about her own personal nisyonos, and then she sees not only that the system of her "religion" is corrupt, but that all of her efforts to fight evil have been squandered as the molester was transfered to another "yeshiva". It becomes a nisayon of emunah, because of Rasha V'tov Lo and Tzadik V'ra Lo.

This is actually the very nisayon that is making so many of our youth go off the derech, doubting the authenticity of the Torah. Seeing that our community actually rewards the r'shaim and punishes the tzadikim, is too much for many survivors to bear, nebach.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Emes v'yatziv R' Asher, with a UOJ caveat.

Inasmuch as the children that leave the fold or off the derech, I believe, for the most part, these kids were never ON the derech.

With an inferior yeshiva system (there are exceptions), an intelligent and inquisitive kid, will have doubts way before he or she exhibits any sense of disgust with the observations he makes.

And as he grows into the age of maturity, he discovers that there was NO foundation at all set; a rock solid set of beliefs that will he be able to carry forth as life does its thing.

Just the opposite, the bright and thinking minority, become convinced that they were hoodwinked.

So when the slightest bit of an "earthquake" strikes his abode, he's gone either outwardly or suffers emotionally all by himself.

Thanks for your observations.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Yerachmiel:

Thanks for your kind words; they actually give me chizuk.

By no means am I "retiring"- there is much I do not discuss.

Truthfully, behind this tough exterior, there's an extremely sensitive person. So all this community dysfunction hurts really bad on a personal level, and how can it not?

I see families crumbling from the emotional double whammy - the sexual predators and the rabbi criminals that dream up all kinds of excuses why they need not, can not, wish not, to get involved in this "imaginary" problem that was dreamt up by the anti-semitic media and "disgruntled" bloggers.

So....I'm not going anywhere, but it would be nice to see more people like yourself Yerachmiel, taking up the cause.

Chazak!

Ombudsman said...

OU stooge Yair Hoffman writes a piece in the 5 Towns Jewish Times earlier this month, under his real name this time instead of sockpuppeting to attack Rubashkin critics.

He laments that divorcees are getting short shrift from the community despite the fact that divorcees are included in the issur of causing tzaar to widows and orphans.

But it is Hoffman who misses the boat. He leaves out gerim a highly mistreated group who the pesukim mention lehedya and most of all, abuse victims who the Rishonim obviously mean to include in addition to divorcees when outlining who else is covered by the lo taaseh. And while Hoffman cites the Ibn Ezra, he leaves out one crucial point made by him that anyone who sees these people being oppressed by others but does nothing to stop it is just as guilty.

Rabbeinu Bachya writes the deciding factor for inclusion is whoever is prone to tears, again inclusive of abuse victims.

The Mechilta applies it to any form of mistreatment—whether great or ever so slightly. Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvos Lo Sa’aseh 256): It is a warning not to mistreat another, either in words or in actions. Rather, one should speak softly to them and use good and uplifting words. He should engage in business ventures with them and provide them with all that is good and with good cheer.

In Hilchos Deios (6:10), Rambam adds that one should treat them respectfully and that one should be more concerned for their money and funds than his own. Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 65) adds that all encounters with them should be with gentleness, kindness, and compassion. Responsa Binyomin Ze’ev (No. 301) writes that the people referred to in this verse have precedence over other types of poor people.

The Midrash asks (Sh’mos Rabbah 30:8) why Hashem loves them to such a degree. The answer is that their eyes look only to Hashem. Several Achronim explain that they have no else to turn to for help.

The Agudah & their friends should take note as the punishment for abusing these people is most severe. The Chayei Adam (Klal 143) writes that those that do so incur the penalty of misah biydei Shamayim which seems to be rooted in the Midrash Shir HaShirim Zutah (1).

Desperate measures said...

That portrayal of the food riot at the Agudah Fresser Convention is a lot less parody and a lot closer to the truth than you know.

As far as I remember this is the first year where the Agudah is sending their foot soldiers all over to bait people to come with the allure of no admission fee and free food galore. They have not been very popular lately and will do anything to shore up their numbers.

Can you imagine thousands of losers converging there who are drawn by this gastronomical bait?

I remember a shiur in Brooklyn once that advertised free food. It was standing room only with overflow to outside of the biggest bunch of shleppers you have seen in your life. You should have seen some of these pigs in full view almost diving headfirst into the grub even as the shiur was being delivered. You had to struggle to listen with all the salivating & chomping in the background and the freeloaders packing doggy bags to take home.

This was in a small shul that is at least 50 times smaller than the Fresser Convention. Kal vachomer, ben bno shel kal vachomer vos vet zein this coming weekend.

Leopold Margulies said...

I always understood pshat in the Rambam that to have good cheer with abuse victims is to laugh at them and call them rejects while screwing them over.

UOJ Public Service Announcement said...

If anyone at the Fresser Convention has a device that can secretly record video, please get some eyepopping footage from the tea room, meat carving station and smorg to provide to UOJ.

That's entertainment!

Some of the things to look out for are arguments over cutting the line to the meat carving, morbidly obese people grabbing as much high calorie nosh as they can, chazirs who zero in on the high end items like expensive truffles and chocolate dipped strawberries and stuff every last one of them in their pockets before running off to gorge themselves and fressers fighting with the servers at the smorg after they grab a huge portion with their bare hands.

Anonymous said...

Executive Vice President Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel was on the Zev Brenner radio show, at midnight, this past motsei Shabbos, trying to drum up business. He emphasized the free public sessions. There are still rooms available.

3 lowlives from Passaic - the Pro-Molester Zemel family said...

http://theviewfromhere.net/2002/10/18/15/

Baruch “The child molesting Rabbi” Lanner news. This article from Jewsweek contends that Lanner’s legal fees are being subsidized by sympathetic members of the Jewish community.

It reads:

Lanner has thus far posted $150,000 bail with the help of Nathan Zemel, whose brother, Fred Zemel, has been representing Lanner pro bono. In addition, Lanner has hired additional, rather expensive legal talent, including Nathan Dershowitz, brother of the better-known Alan Dershowitz. This has led one source close to the case to contend that, “someone is paying for all of his legal fees, and it cannot be Baruch alone.”

http://www.rockwallheraldbanner.com/opinion/local_story_228201541.html

In late July, 2009, New Jersey’s Committee on Attorney Advertising held a hearing to determine whether legal ethics lines were crossed by the placement of a lawyer’s flyer on the windshield of a rape victim’s car. The victim, known in court papers as K.D., had been sexually assaulted in December 2006 during an inspection of her federally subsidized apartment by a Newark Housing Authority employee. After K.D. reported her rape, four other female tenants came forward to testify about similar incidents, and the rapist was caught and sentenced on multiple counts. But about two months after the assault occurred, K.D. found an orange flyer on her car’s windshield from Fred Zemel’s Newark law firm touting the lawyer’s services to anyone who’d been the victim of “rape and assault in your building or apartment.”

Zemel denies deliberately targeting K.D. or even knowing where she lived or parked her car; he maintains that he had an outside service “generally circulate flyers,” and that similar flyers had been distributed the same way long before the crime.

K.D. however, maintains that no other car nearby had such a flyer on it, and felt that it was directed at her. She points out that while most news accounts of her case had identified her by her initials, one news station did disclose her full name. At issue are New Jersey Rules of Professional Conduct that require certain disclosures in any unsolicited direct contact with a prospective client, as well as rules that prohibit communicating with someone whose physical, mental, or emotional state might impair the decision to hire a lawyer. At press time, the Committee on Attorney Advertising had not yet issued a ruling.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202432615948

07-29-2009

The ethics complaint, filed on Oct. 9, 2008, originally named as the respondent Zemel's sister, Margo Zemel, a Newark solo who once practiced with Fred as Zemel & Zemel.

Agudah Fressing on a shoestring budget said...

This is of course stealing but it hasn't stopped many people before.

Motty Katz figured out that freeloading fressers would stay at hotels down the street from where he was catering Shabbos & Yomtov meals and walk over to eat for free. He would announce by davening that it is theft for any of these people to even take a cookie at kiddush and he patrols for them.

I know at least one weirdo who does this for the Agudah convention.

Avi L. Shafran said...

As usual, UOJ is presenting selective facts to make us look bad. The reference to the chocolate coated strawberries probably has to do with the time that I put a whole pile of them in my Borsalino. They weren't for me. What happened was they ran out of desserts in the main dining room so I ran to the tea room to get them for the roshei yeshiva on the dais.

I did hear a rumor that Kolko likes to smack down all the expensive truffles but he is not a card carrying Agudah member.

Lakewood said...

Isn't Dr. Zemel that alter bochur who comes to daven Yamim Noraim in the Lakewood yeshiva every year?

Passaic said...

The Zemels are members of Rabbi Eisenmann's shul.

How does that work?

Shoestring Fresser said...

Staying down the street from the Fresser convention or Motty Katz is nothing.

One shnorrer even figured out how to not pay for the hotel bed.

The brother of that guy in Mirrer yeshiva with the yellow suits, who is also an aging alter bocher, has been seen sneaking into all kinds of events when the guy collecting money at the door briefly steps away. He also starts telling guests in the hotel that he was "messed up" and asks that he shlepp a mattress in their room to sleep on.

Anonymous said...

Yerachmiel Lopin wrote on another blog that R' Shmuel Kaminetzky blames Mondrowitz for several suicides and demands he be extradited to face trial.

Where does he know this from?

Chaim Dovid Zweibel Esq. said...

Yes, yes, yes!! Shteyt takkeh "ad sroch naal".

Come one, come all! We need all of you shoestring fressers and any other warm bodies we can cram into the building.

We have to show the politicians that we have the votes to defeat anyone voting for Markey!

Anonymous said...

Chabad Online Live is reporting that the RCA has a new rule that no Meshichistim can be members of their organization. Every RCA member has to sign a paper that they hold no such beliefs. This is probably nogaya lemayseh because some out of town Young Israel rabbonim are Lubavitchers.

Rabbi Rakefet-Rothkopf mentions in a YU Online shiur that a group of YU roshei yeshiva recently poskened that Meshichistim are kofrim.

Margo Zemel covering up for Satmar said...

http://www.jewlicious.com/2007/01/when-i-get-that-feelin-i-need-virtual-semicha/

Margo Zemel Esq. testified to our civil Divorce Judge that she could not stand before him in a Court of Law unless her brother, Freddy Zemel was present, out of Ortho. law. I believe it was just a delaying technique, because she was busy fighting to prevent an autoposy on a dead baby from the Satmar community who had been shaken to death, in the same Court at the same time, before another Judge. When the Judge said the brother should litigate one case and she should do the other, this was her claim

Anonymous said...

A modern orthodox guy from Flatbush, Stuart Kroth, is the King of the shoestring fressers and he may also be a (married) molester of women.

He puts together groups to take to hotels that he finds with Jewish Press ads he places as a way of getting free room & food for himself.

During the week, he reads the list of Black hat yeshiva dinners that Citicom compiles for the Yated and shows up to get free meals by pigging out at the smorgasbord.

Women should stay far away from him. He looks for any excuse to shmooze with women, which quickly turns into flirting and he has his hands touching various parts of their bodies while feigning emphasis of speech. If the woman has not walked away from him in the first couple of minutes, his hands are all over her.

Boro Park said...

When Margo Zemel got divorced, she was angry that R' Tuvya Goldstein didn't take her side so she reportedly had people ring R' Tuvya's doorbell several times in the middle of the night for weeks on end to bother the old sickly rosh yeshiva.

Dr. Bungalow Putz Neuhoff said...

Yeah, a modern orthodox loser who never bothered to move out of Flatbush. Stuart Kroth sounds exactly like the kind of audience that UOJ caters to.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Unorthodox Uoj Jew - Facebook Dobbs for President?

Vus Zugt UOJ:

Ich hab shoen gegeben mine haskoma on Facebook November 12, 2009 - vile Rupert Murdoch hut nuch nit gevashen nagel vaser!

*

The Nation -- Parsing the Lou Dobbs bombshell, I can't help wondering if the pudgy populist is planning a run for president in 2012.

My guess: yes.

And if he does, I'll bet he'll do so as a Peron-style, would-be Ross Perot. It could be America's first truly fascist electoral effort.
November 12 at 9:12am

Town Car Putz Lefkowitz said...

There is no reason for UOJ's & Nuchem Rosenberg's people to picket the Agudah convention because I am against all kinds of molestation.

And that shnorrer is welcome at the convention. We will find him a mattress and treat him like a King. Tell him to bring all of his friends.

David Patterson is going to be impressed how many homeless people, I mean rank & file supporters, we have showing up at Agudah events.

Yerachmiel Lopin, frumfollies blogger said...

Anonymous said.. Yerachmiel Lopin wrote on another blog that R' Shmuel Kaminetzky blames Mondrowitz for several suicides and demands he be extradited to face trial. Where does he know this from?

See this video on http://innocentheart.org/parents.php?cmd=videos&page_id=26

Description:

It was part of a speech on July 11th as part of Project Innocent Heart.

Dr. Bungalow Ku Neuhoff said...

Rabbi Margulies's nutritionist has figured out a new formula to reduce his side effects from chulent.

http://www.meatprocess.com/Industry-markets/Greening-dairy-and-the-cow-of-the-future

The ‘cow of the future’ will continue the progress made in reducing methane emissions by 63 per cent since 1960, mostly through nutritional adjustments.

Anonymous said...

The best source of information on Shmuel Borger is .....


his first wife!


Shmuel Borger is divorced, and he allegedly beat the living daylights out of his first wife.

His first wife knows it all, and would be a great source of information for any reporters out there.

British Agudah Fresser said...

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/21941/finchley-man-fined-filming-shoppers-skirt

A Finchley man was fined £350 for filming up a woman’s skirt in Sainsbury’s.

Alan Howard Rose, 48, a legal executive from North Finchley admitted filming the woman with a camera hidden in his bag.

He was fined at City of London magistrates’ court for disorderly behaviour and has been forced to resign from his law firm, which has not been identified.

Kings County Civil Court said...

Shmuel Borger and 4 other Borgers in Brooklyn have lawsuits against them from banks, utilities and collection agencies for being deadbeats.

Anonymous said...

Kings Civil Supreme
Index Number: 027482/1999
Case Name: HOFFMAN,MEIR & JUDY vs. BORGER,SHMUEL
Case Type: Other
Track: Standard
RJI Filed: 10/19/1999

Anonymous said...

Kings Civil Supreme
Index Number: 034422/2004
Case Name: KATCHALOVA,ELIZABETH vs. BORGER,SAMUEL J.
Case Type: Other
Track: Standard
RJI Filed: 12/22/2004

Anonymous said...

I live in Passaic and the Dr. Zemel here always struck me as a real creepy guy.

Anonymous said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/us/24crime.html?hp

Liberals are joining forces with Libertarians and even some Conservatives like Edwin Meese and the Heritage Foundation to argue that pedophiles should not be kept in jail when their prison sentence is over.

What's wrong with these people? Conservatives should be smart enough to know what recidivism is.

UOJ gets results said...

China executed two men on Tuesday for their involvement in the contamination of milk products that killed at least six Chinese infants and sickened about 300,000 other children.

Agudah Fressers imitate Ancient Egyptians said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/health/24heart.html

By NATASHA SINGER
The Book of Exodus in the King James translation of the Bible describes a pharaoh who “hardened his heart” against the exodus of the Jews from ancient Egypt. But if a research letter published last week in The Journal of the American Medical Association is correct, the pharaoh may have been suffering from hardened arteries.

The new report recounts how a team of cardiologists used CT scanning on mummies in the Egyptian National Museum of Antiquities in Cairo to identify atherosclerosis — a buildup of cholesterol, inflammation and scar tissue in the walls of the arteries, a problem that can lead to heart attack and stroke.

The cardiologists were able to identify the disease in some mummies because atherosclerotic tissue often develops calcification, which is visible as bright spots on a CT image. The finding that some mummies had hardened arteries raises questions about the common wisdom that factors in modern life, including stress, high-fat diets, smoking and sedentary routines, play an essential role in the development of cardiovascular disease, the researchers said.

Yerachmiel Lopin, frumfollies blogger said...

Ronnie Greenwald commented on my blog to answer one of my questions to Horowitz and Twerski. The long and the short is he was saying that according to Eliyashiv (in a private conversation with him) you cant go to the police until you have two complainants. I wrote an answer. I am curious to hear your thoughts on my answer and some more questions to put out.

BTW, Vicki Polin replied with some real answers.

steve said...

Yerachmiel,

Ask Ronnie Greenwald if it was his child who was molested, whether he will wait for another complainant or will he run to the police? Would he have doubts that pehaps his child is a vicious fabricator or has a wild imagination? If his child came running home crying because his rebbe molested him, would that be halachically considered "raglayim ladavar"? Another chassid shoteh who perverts halacha!