Wednesday, November 17, 2010

"I am distressed that students are taught to belittle the discoveries of science..."

I Thought the Greeks Lost

by Dovid Landesman

For many years, the Torah Umesorah Annual Dinner was scheduled for the week of Chanukah. One year, R. Gedaliah Schorr zt’l, rosh yeshiva of Torah Vodaath, and at the time, the only member of the organization’s Rabbinic Advisory Board who spoke unaccented and fluent English, was invited to give the keynote address. The master of ceremonies, when introducing Rav Schorr, decided to use the opportunity to offer his take on the educational needs of the country. In his lengthy remarks, he challenged Torah Vodaath to open a college and “show how it should be done.” When it was finally his turn to speak, Rav Schorr stood silently at the podium for a moment, a pensive expression on his face. He then turned toward the m.c. with an enormous smile and said: “You know, I was under the impression that we defeated the Greeks!”

The relationship between am Yisrael and Greece has always been somewhat equivocal. Greece is counted as one of the four nations [along with Bavel, Persia and Rome/Edom] who have subjected Israel to exile, yet throughout the period when we were subservient to Greece, we were never physically absent from the land of Israel. Moreover, the initial acceptance of Greek domination was passive. Alexander the Great was crossing Eretz Yisrael on his way to battle the Persians for world domination when Shimon ha-Tzaddik – kohen gadol and leader of the sanhedrin – reached a political agreement with him to insure that Yerushalayim was not “accidentally” destroyed by the Greek legions as they made their way east. The physical conditions of exile under the Greeks were benign until the period of the Chashmonaim when the Jews revolted against their rule; a revolt that was in great part a reaction to the assimilation of Greek values by a significant portion of the Jewish population.

On one hand, Greek culture is seen as particularly depraved. The worship of beauty – especially of the human form – and the emphasis on aesthetics [art and literature] is considered to be the embodiment of the triumph of the physical over the spiritual. The proclivity towards homosexual behavior, the lack of elementary tzniut at public events, the vivid descriptions of intimacy among multiple gods in a series of classic fables – all of these would seem to point to a culture that is the absolute antithesis of Judaism. Thus, it is surprising to find that Greek language is considered to be second only to lashon ha-kodesh in its intrinsic holiness. I would expect that Chazal would have us avoid such cultural assimilation at all cost.

Yaft Elokim l’Yeffet v’yishkon b’ahalei Shem – God granted beauty to Yeffet so that it might dwell in the tents of Shem. The simple explanation would suggest that there is an entire area of Divine wisdom – the beauty of Yeffet – which was made accessible to Shem through the good offices of Yavan [Greece], the scion of Yeffet. Beauty has intrinsic value, for we find Chazal (Shabbat 131a) interpreting the verse zeh keli v’anvehu – this is my God and I shall beautify Him (Shemot 15:2) as indicating that in performing a mitzvah, one should do so in the most aesthetically pleasing manner possible. Given the clear link between the obsession with aesthetics in Greek life and the excesses of Greek culture, one might expect this to be less than important.

In building the mishkan, Moshe was commanded to specifically utilize the craftsmanship of Betzalel because he was blessed with extraordinary artistic talents in a wide variety of fields. Betzalel is considered to be “filled with wisdom” because he knew how to sew, weave and embroider magnificent tapestries – skills that as far as I know, no contemporary yeshiva has ever encouraged! True, these were undoubtedly inherent rather than learned qualities – I would be very surprised to discover that Betzalel had been enrolled as a student of the Ramses School of Design prior to yetziyat Mitzrayim – but they are nevertheless talents that are not usually considered to be part of Torah nor are they – or related fields like music or architecture – part of the yeshiva curriculum.

In general, Judaism does not seem to completely reject the absorption of values from outside sources. Chazal declare chachmah bagoyim, ta’amin – recognize that the nations are in possession of wisdom; i.e., there are valuable fields of knowledge that are accessible without recourse to Torah. This would not a priori mean that these fields of knowledge are unavailable to one who has never been exposed to secular studies. In theory, one could utilize his natural talents and eventually achieve the same results. As far as I know, there is not even an illusion to the healing properties of Vitamin E in Torah shebichtav or sheb’aal peh. Nevertheless, even if I had never been exposed to the scientific process of observation and experimentation through which all pharmacology is established, I could in time determine the medicinal value of Aloe vera on my own. Similarly, the complex nano-technology which allows for the manufacture of microscopic devices is ultimately a result of the scientific process that could theoretically be developed without relying on the instruction of others. Obviously, however, it is more efficient to utilize the publicized findings of others rather than repeat experiments by yourself. But is this determination the totality of what Chazal had in mind when they spoke of chochmah bagoyim?

I would posit that chochmah bagoyim ta’amin means that we should accept that this chochmah is valid even though it comes from non-Torah sources. These fields of knowledge do not depend upon Divinely revealed wisdom accessible only through Torah; they are a byproduct of the Divine gifts of intelligence and creativity with which all mankind was imbued and which everyone can develop to the extent that his potential allows. If you decide that you will ignore scientific breakthroughs because they are not rooted in Torah and instead engage in your own research and experimentation so as to be sure that your life is al taharat ha-kodesh, then know that you will be guilty of a grievous amount of unnecessary bittul Torah.

I am distressed that students are taught to belittle the discoveries of science, claiming that we have no need for it since hafoch bah, hafoch bah, d’kulo bah – study it (Torah), study it, for everything all [knowledge] is in it. I have often heard students – and quite a few rebbis – point to the mathematical and medical genius of the Chazon Ish as proof that there is no need to teach our children a core curriculum of general studies. Glibly, they claim: “Look how much the Chazon Ish knew without ever having gone to college!” My invariable reply is that the Chazon Ish also achieved an incredible level of mastery in all fields of Torah despite [or perhaps because of] the fact that he never attended a yeshiva!

There is another factor that needs to be analyzed when considering the extent of general knowledge to which one allows himself to be exposed. Our ability to efficiently utilize the wisdom of the scientific process is dependent upon a basic familiarity with the fundamentals of math, science, and foreign languages augmented by reading comprehension and writing proficiency. Most of these areas of knowledge are not included in the basic cheder curriculum in Eretz Yisrael. I wonder whether the excesses that the scientific method is judged to have brought to society have led to a rejection of the notion that there still is wisdom among the goyim.

Casey Stengel once wisely commented that “nostalgia aint what it used to be.” Nonetheless, I think that it is worthwhile to look back and see if we can determine why the yeshivot a few decades ago were apparently more successful in producing talmidim who saw no contradiction in straddling the divide between Torah study and general education.

Forty or fifty years ago, parents expected the yeshivot – at least the non-chassidic mosdot – to provide their children with a decent secular education, for the majority of them intended that their sons continue with professional studies after they graduated high school. To be sure there were a number of students who did not do so – if I recall correctly, approximately 30% of the beit midrash bachurim in Torah Vodaath did not attend college – but as a general rule, this was the expected path.

For the most part, talmidim learned two sedarim in the yeshiva and then attended college from about 5:30-10:30 two or four nights a week. Many then continued onto graduate studies in a variety of fields, including law, accounting, business, medicine, engineering, psychology and the sciences. For the most part, and there were of course exceptions, they remained bnei Torah and have built homes that are paradigms of Torah and chessed. I would say without hesitation that in the overwhelming majority of cases, their homes are more strictly observant than those of their parents. Their immersion in the world of general knowledge did not erode their level of observance.

Did Rav Schorr see them as casualties of Greek culture? I obviously cannot speak for him, but can only convey the impressions I have based on what I heard from him. Rav Schorr also served as head of Beit Medrash Elyon in Spring Valley – which was a parallel institution to Lakewood – but he made the bachurim in Torah Vodaath feel that we were no less bnei Torah than the students there. He stressed that the primary responsibility we had was to establish our own identity as bnei Torah. Some talmidim learned all day, others learned less while still others were kovea itim for a defined period based on the time they had. But we were all equal, for Torah was the mirror which we looked at when we wanted to see our image.

The yeshivot – and roshei yeshivot – were able to convey to the talmidim a sense of proportion. General knowledge was never glorified but neither was it disparaged. The atmosphere in the yeshiva’s beit midrash was eclectic; one year my morning seder chavruta was the son [and eventual successor to] a prominent chassidic rebbe while my afternoon chavruta was destined to become the chairman of the psychology department at a well known local university. While the latter did not wear the same garb as the former, there was very little difference in their world views. The fact that they chose different “career” paths did not translate itself into a parting of their ways. The talmidim felt that we shared a similar commitment to Torah despite our diverse backgrounds and aspirations which created a ruach within the yeshiva that helped us when we were outside its doors.

Certain behaviors were considered to be “conduct unbecoming” a Torah Vodaath boy and this self-imposed and accepted code was a great source of support during the times we found ourselves on the college campus. We did not need a va’ad harabbanim to set these standards for us; the roshei yeshiva – especially Rav Schorr and Rav Pam zt’l – made us feel that they trusted us to do what was right. Perhaps the atmosphere on college campuses was somewhat less hostile than it is today. Personally, I doubt that the yetzer hara is stronger than it was then; it is the methodology that has changed.

Today a bachur who leaves the beit midrash to study or work is burdened by a sense of guilt; either because he is led to feel that he must be a failure because he does not have sufficient motivation to continue or because he lacks the mesirat nefesh (or deep pockets) to survive the economic rough spots. That leaves him with few choices. He can either plod on and increase his discomfort and sense of frustration, masking it behind a false sense of accomplishment and satisfaction, or he can break away – partially or completely. Without a sense of accomplishment or identification with the yeshiva, the student seeks those signs of success in the world of general studies. This is an unnecessary tragedy that is the basic ingredient that allows the contemporary Greeks their victory. Rejected in his own world, he seeks acceptance and recognition elsewhere.

At what point does a focus on the absorption of general knowledge and culture lead us to the point, in Rav Schorr’s words, of providing the Greeks with a belated victory and at what point does it fit into the rubric of chachmah bagoyim ta’amin? Can we establish a quantifiable amount of general knowledge desirable or is it a moving target that depends upon the era and location of the community? At what point do we risk becoming assimilated rather than acculturated?
I’m not sure whether there are clear parameters that can be drawn. In one community in which I lived one of the local roshei yeshiva would prepare his shiurim while listening to Bach and Beethoven. I doubt that the people there would have been as understanding if he had done so to the music of the Beatles. Unquestionably lines have to be drawn; just as there are chochmot that we can draw upon to enhance our Jewish lives, there are those that can be misused and become destructive and dangerous. The trick, and challenge, is to develop the skills to differentiate between them.

The Greeks succeeded because they were able to convince the Jews that adherence to Torat Moshe was primitive and uncultured. The contemporary fallout from the yeshivot suffer from a similar damaged self-image. Distanced for many reasons from the spiritual light of Torah – as expressed by commitment to Torah study – which they cannot appreciate and which brings them little satisfaction, they are easy victims for seduction by the neon lights of the outside world. The antidote, however, is not to lock them behind high walls and deny them the benefits of general knowledge; that would be self-defeating as well as increasingly unfeasible in a technology driven world.

At the very least schools, mechanchim, mechanchot as well as parents must be sure to reinforce the sense of self-worth of each and every talmid – reassuring them that they all have their own portion in Torah – portions that are of equal import provided that they are the paths that are right for each child’s potential and ability. Chanoch lanoar al pi darko – instruct the child according to his path – based on the road that he can follow, not on a one size fits all course of study. For some students that might be defined as spending years in a kollel mastering many blatt gemara, for others it might be applying the lessons of Choshen Mishpat that they have been taught in yeshiva in their businesses or medical practices. Yaft Elokim l’Yeffet – the outside world has considerable beauty. It can be threatening when glorified as an end unto itself or it can be enriching when it is properly brought l’ohalei Shem – to dwell within the tents of Shem.

[Rabbi Dovid Landesman resides in Ramat Beit Shemesh where he comments on the foibles of life in Israel. His collection of essays, There Are No Basketball Courts in Heaven is available in Jewish bookstores and his new book, Food for Thought – No Hechsher Required, will be published b’ezrat Hashem this winter.]


Yerachmiel Lopin said...

I would like to propose a new segula tzedakah. You pay for the car upkeep costs for ten talmidei chachomim. In return they daven and learn for you. This is a segula for finding parking spaces. It should be especially popular in Boro Park and Lakewood.

Nostalgic said...

Although I might be biased because I myself attended Torah V'Daath, the author has expressed my sentiments to a tee.
The basic question is why did this whole movement to the right come about with its accompanying chumras and rejection of all things secular.
In my time the New York Times was allowed to be read in the dormitory.
Without getting into the anti Israel stance of the paper, the question is what happened over the last 40 years?.
Part of the answer is the additional deterioration of moral decay in society but with proper support this can be challenged, These boys have to enter society at some point in their lives. You cannot hide behind a gemara forever.
In addition, technology has created instant access to things that one would have had to expend time and energy in previous years.

These issues have to be met head on and not by simplying assuring every new thing that comes along.

There are thousands of kids from frum homes that are turned off by the way Orthodox Judaism is being practised today. Every single one of us has a child, niece/nephew, neighbour who has gone this route with the accompanying problems that emerge.

The first step is to stop disparaging anybody who is just a bit different from us in how they practice Yiddishkeit. This machla has to stop otherwise we are doomed.

"UOJ" - "The Un-Orthodox Jew" said...

Comments related to the above post only --- will be posted on this thread.

dave said...

Would it not help one who was learning eruvin to have some basic math skills before he opened his gemara? Would basic anatomy not help the yeshiva guy breaking his teeth on chullin (assuming he doesn't metamei himself by opening an artscroll)? Does one need to be at the level of the chazon ish before he can accurately count out change at the grocery store?

The insistence of yeshivas on disparaging secular education is nothing less than foisting willful ignorance on its own kool aid imbibers. And the more ignorant they are, the more they absolutely need to stay in the yeshiva's four walls.

Lo bashomayim hee. The Torah was never intended for the malachim. Sitting in the Yeshiva forever is not meant for every guy.

Real and true mastery of Torah is to be able to ply it and abide by it in the real world.

The Yeshiva I went to always had college guys coming to learn, either in the morning or evening. It no longer does as these types are no longer welcome in the heiliger bais hamedrash. They are welcome to come to parlor meetings though.

Do the math.

Betzalel said...

The real reason why science and the outside-world has been disparaged is because people have willfully turned their brains off through arrogance. The attitude is "I learn in yeshiva/kollel. The outside-world is full of idiots; therefore, I don't have to pay any attention to it. G-d loves me more than those in the outside world. To Gehenom with them!"

This is wrong and self-destructive.

UOJ gets results said...

A Note to Readers

By Avi Shafran, on November 16th, 2010

Dear Cross-Currents Reader,

In lieu of offering an essay this Friday, I’d like to take the opportunity now to let you know about some changes that will be taking place in the origin and distribution of my weekly offerings.

It has been 12 years since I began writing the weekly column that, in recent years, has been posted on Cross-Currents. It has been produced under the auspices of “Am Echad Resources” – a service of Am Echad, Agudath Israel’s project to provide the larger Jewish world with Torah-informed material and current events commentary.

Unfortunately, budget cuts and attendant decisions at Agudath Israel have limited the scope of my duties for the organization.

Although I remain Agudath Israel’s media and public liaison and spokesperson, among the things I will no longer be doing on behalf of the Agudah will be my weekly column.

I will, however, still be producing it for a new publication, Ami Magazine, whose first issue is planned for November 24. Ami, a weekly that will offer a wide range of news, commentary and features for an observant Jewish readership, promises to be a good read for those across the breadth of the Orthodox spectrum and beyond. I have accepted an editorial role at the new venture and penning a weekly column in its pages will be part of my responsibilities.

Although I will continue to publish material in various venues that will reflect official Agudath Israel positions – and such writing will appear above my name and organizational title – my Ami columns will offer personal, not organizational, commentary, musings and occasional Torah thoughts.

Ami’s chief editors have granted me permission to share the columns with Cross-Currents readers, which I am happy to do. The magazine will be published each Wednesday and I will share the previous week’s column the following Monday. Thus, my first Ami column will be e-mailed on November 29. (Ami will publish its second issue on December 15, after which it will be published weekly.) I hope that you will consider subscribing to Ami, both to receive my column when it appears and to partake of the magazine’s other worthy offerings. Subscription and other information is available at amimagazine.org or can be obtained by calling 718 534-8800.

Although I am not sharing a column this week, below are two items that might be of interest. One is a follow-up to last week’s essay, a letter from someone who was moved by it to write the Forward; the second is a letter I wrote on behalf of Agudath Israel to the Wall St. Journal, responding to an opinion piece the paper ran last week entitled “Israel’s Ultra-Orthodox Welfare Kings,” which presented assertions that state-supported Torah study in the Jewish State is a “disaster,” is “‘diametrically opposed’ to Jewish tradition” and has “harmed the quality of Jewish thought.”

Best wishes,


Secular Subjects said...


Secular Subjects 2 said...


Anonymous said...

Studying secular subjects on Shabbat
פורסם על ידי Mordechai Tzion ב- 22:31
Q: Is it permissible to study secular subjects on Shabbat?
A: This is a dispute between the Rishonim. The Rambam wrote in his commentary on the Mishnah (Shabbat chap. 23 and quote in the Beit Yosef Orach Chaim 307) that it is forbidden to read books of wisdom, which are not Torah, on Shabbat and Yom Tov. This is interesting since the Rambam is usually thought to be the authorities most open to general wisdom. But according to the Ramban (Beit Yosef ibid.), it is permissible to read medical books since they contain wisdom. These two opinions at quoted in the Shulchan Aruch (ibid. #17): "It is forbidden to study on Shabbat and Yom Tov aside from words of Torah, and even books of wisdom are forbidden, and there is an opinion which permits it." The Mishnah Berurah (380:65) indicated that we act leniently but it is proper to be strict. The basic halachah is therefore that it is permissible to learn secular subjects on Shabbat but it is certainly proper to be strict. If one follows the permissible view, it includes school reading or studying for a test on the condition that one enjoys it. If such activities cause stress and fear over a test, one should refrain from studying.
It is related that the Rama once quoted a thought from Aristotle in one of his Teshuvot, and the Meharshal was upset that instead of learning Torah he learned Aristotle. The Rama responded that he was free from transgression, and even though he brought a quote from Aristotle, heaven and earth can testify that he did not learn any of his books. On Shabbat, when others were taking walks, he would learn Moreh Nevuchim and books about nature, and he saw the thought from Aristotle there. During the week, he only learned Gemara and Halachah (Shut Ha-Rama #7). We therefore see that instead of taking a stroll on Shabbat afternoon, the Rama strolled in books about nature.

Anonymous said...


Boruch said...

Knowledge brings a certain gaiveh to a person and with that gaiveh comes an air of superiority that isn't sustainable. Knowledge is a ladder where you are at a step only long enough to know that you must get to the next step. Chocmas Yavin isn't secular superiority in knowledge, science, or philosophy, it's a step on the ladder. We have disabled ourselves by conjuring up an all that's evil approach to secular knowledge. Our discernment has been grossly undermined by disallowing that which is truly assur to be dissected and understood in the context of issur. We have become blind followers to pagan priests, once again.
If years ago Artscroll blistered as a learning cop-out, the Reader's Digest version of Torah to be avoided at all costs is now a mainstreamed and lauded methodology, then secular studies should rise again to regain it's proper place and role in Jewish life. How are these comparable? If breaking your head on a Gemara can be replaced by a digest of meforshim and translations to make instant talmedei chochomim, then secular studies has a rightful place to develop self sustaining men and women. This isn't a demand to include Advanced Placement Physics in the 2nd grade, but the notion that basic skills are assur is assur. Why? Because you have to guard yourself and therefore you have to know what it is out there to protect yourself from and it's totally irresponsible to leave that to a self-selected few.
Let's ramble about the internet, the bad, the ugly internet, full of instant entrapments. It's stated that in past generations effort had to be exerted to find the schmutz. Really! The same New York Times that you read in the yeshiva dormitory contained advertisements of barely clothed females twice a year, at least, as I remember. Sports Illustrated's popularity grew in February to exaggarated norms amongst boys who couldn't hold a baseball bat properly. TV wasn't as risque in the 60's and 70's but the limits were stretched. Children need to be taught how to discern what is damaging from what is useful and they need to know basic skills for living. Jews should not entitle themselves and rely on others. Boruch hagever asher yiftach Hashem...and keep handy the tools that allow that.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what happened to Tropper? Did he ever move out of Monsey? If so, where is he living now?

Thanks for your help.

Abracadabra said...

Rabbi Landesman - EXCELLENT article!!! Well said and excellent in all ways. Thank you for putting this into words.

Perhaps you can send this to every Rosh Yeshiva, Mashgiach and Menahel in every Beis Medrash, High School and Elementary School? Perhaps you can weigh in with policy-makers and trend-setters in current Yeshivish circles to start changing the way things are?

My brother suffered greatly as a result of this system. To this day he feels like he failed because he didn't stay in Beis Medrash after a few years of post-high-school learning, because our family simply couldn't afford to keep supporting him (even though he was/is a good learner!). He still refused to go to college, as he felt it was "bad enough" that he failed in his leaving full-time learning, he didn't want to further lower himself spiritually by also going to college. So he got a stupid job, has no future earning ability, does not have any marketable skills, and cannot adequately support his family. Now he feels like a failure on ALL fronts. Zu Torah?

Something has to change, this cannot be allowed to go on. But what can the "little man" do on his own?

There need to be leaders who can lead with the Klal as the priority (instead of their own popularity, kavod, or fear of going against "the tide").

Perhaps you can help start a grass-roots movement where parents demand more from the Yeshivos?

Anonymous said...

Is it true that Kolko tried sneaking out of the back of his house at 2317 Avenue K when he saw the NYPD at his front door and that he even resisted arrest?

Chicago Askanim said...

Chicago's very own Moshe Davis will be the Co-Chairman of the 88th National Convention of Agudath Israel of America. The theme this year is "For the Sake of Our Precious, Vulnerable Youth Securing our Yeshivos... our Homes... our Future"

Masseches Kiddushin delineates the obligations a child has towards his father. At the same time it clearly delineates the obligations a father has towards his child. This creates a harmonious partnership where feelings of superiority and abuse can't gain a foothold.

The Agudah convention topics deal exclusively with what are the financial obligations the community has to the failing school system. Yet, from discussions with the convention chairs and Agudath Israel leadership there are no plans to mention the responsibilities that the schools have to create a safe learning environment, an environment free from intimidation by school personnel and private meetings in enclosed areas.

With the arrest last night of a former Agudath Israel employee for parole violations for an incident that took place in one of the yeshivas, should be a wake up call to amend the convention schedule to reflect on the obligations a school has to our children.

Our children deserve no less.

YoelB said...

The Greeks succeeded because they were able to convince the Jews that adherence to Torat Moshe was primitive and uncultured.

Note the subtlety of the Yetzer: There were (and are) primitive, uncultured adherents to Torat Moshe. The Hellenizers, though, concluded that it was adherence to Torah that causes the primitive behavior. B"H, we know it ain't necessarily so.

The problem is, there is some teaching of "Torah" that promotes primitive, uncultured behavior. Still, I hope that the "students [who] are taught to belittle the discoveries of science, claiming that we have no need for it since hafoch bah, hafoch bah, d’kulo bah" would, if they asked the same rabbeim who belittle science "My baby has a high fever, should I call the doctor" be told "What are you doing wasting your time on the phone with me? Go to the doctor!"
Atheists, foxholes... no, I couldn't possibly mean that misapplication of "hafoch bah" is actually a sign of defective emunah, could I?

Though come to think of it, wouldn't the Chazon Ish have said "go to a doctor"?

Boruch said...

wouldn't the Chazon Ish have said "go to a doctor"?

Would you really have to go the Chazon Ish or any other Rov to apply what should be a seicheldig zogt? Shame on us for not having developed the emunah in Hashem's Torah and bitachon in His ability to create Man in His Image. Woe to us when catcalling replaces revulsion in matters of who and when we should go to authorities outside of the Oylam HaTeirah. Teirah, who's that anyway - I guess Torah has been replaced by Teirah so that illiterate mockies who have devalued pronounciation can sound important too. Then you look at the side bar and read what revisionists write about molesters and you can conclude that we didn't beat Yavan, in total. The defects in emunah are not about hafoch boh, vehafoch boh ve kol boh. The defects stem from the misapplication of seichel and the reliance on others to sidestep responsibility. We live in a litigious world and taking the "bull by the horns" means getting stabbed. We demand accountablility but we don't begin with the image in the mirror. We cry about entitlement and then we entitle ourselves. Bring back Pogo - the enemy is us.

what's pshat? said...


Defendant Joel Kolko

County All Counties

No cases found

Did Charlie Hynes already scrub this to keep the protection racket going?

Anonymous said...

casey stengel? c'mon. everyone knows that that is a quote from the great yogi berra. can't this "educated" writer at least get his facts straight?

Yerachmiel Lopin said...

Regarding Kolko showing up on the arrest system. There is a lag of a few days for data entry.