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Monday, February 21, 2011

THE REAL PROBLEM IS NOT TALKING ABOUT “IT” TO OUR CHILDREN, AT HOME AND IN SCHOOL-PART TWO

THE UOJ ARCHIVES - JULY 13, 2006

What I write below will likely not be news to any of the intelligent people who read this blog and support UOJ but may be news to some people on the fringe.

The most upsetting part of the whitewash meeting held at YTT in June in which David Mandel and Aron Twerski spoke – besides Rabbi Twerski’s undeserved, premature, ill-timed and ill-advised “haskamah” of Margo as “a man of great honor” - is this part of the story as reported by Jennifer Friedlin in the Jewish Week:

“[W]hen an audience member asked whether sex education could help to strengthen children’s knowledge of inappropriate behavior and empower them to come forward if someone violated them, Mandel responded that sex education was ‘not something realistic’ in a community that stresses modesty.”

There is so much wrong with that sentence, that it sends shivers up my spine.

1. Sexual abuse has about as much to do with sex and sex education, as rape has to do with making love.

What we have learned over the past thirty years is that rape is not a sex act but an act of violence and violation, of dominance, control and power. Many rapists, although clearly not all, have difficulty finding voluntary sexual partners. While they do achieve their own sexual gratification during the rape, it is through fear, power, intimidation, (and not through the intimacy shared between lovers) that is the tool to their climax. It is sick, perverse, criminal and traumatizing.

Similarly, sexual abuse of minors is not an act of love. It is a sick, perverse act of seduction of the helpless, of taking advantage by wielding power, intimidation, humiliation and violence. It is no less traumatizing than rape – for in its essence, it is rape.

2. Although sex education should be taught in all yeshivas, one can teach about sexual abuse without even using the term “sex” – and without getting into the mechanics of sex and sexual education.

We have really great educators who have spent decades testing age appropriate sexual education from very young ages (e.g., 4-6-year-olds and up), and every study shows that it does not cause an increase in teenage sexual activity – despite our primitives beliefs in the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox community to the contrary.

But lets say we’re right. Let’s say that Mandel is right – that sex education in a community that stresses modesty is not realistic. Teaching about abuse and about unwanted touching of a child’s private parts, and what is inappropriate behavior on the part of parents, teachers, Rabbis, and camp counselors, has nothing to do with sex! It can be taught without causing nightmares, without causing trauma, without talking about the mechanics of sex, etc.

There are well-trained, frum professionals: social workers, psychologists, doctors and nurses who are ready to come into our schools and inform our kids in a way that will make them feel less traumatized and less stigmatized about what has happened to them and about coming forward. It can be discussed by these professionals in a frum and tzne’usdikeh way.

But we refuse to do it. Why??? Because we are our own kids worst enemy! We are led by small-minded naysayers, by the “sha-shtill” crowd – the Margulies, the Twerskis, the Mandels, the Shafrans, the Schicks of our world - who believe that if we don’t talk about it, if we hush it up, it is a smaller problem that it really is, it will go away or it won’t even exist.

WE ARE SICK!

Not too long ago, I remember when the more modern yeshivas were faced with the following dilemma: They became fully aware of the fact that there are anorexics and bulimics in the girls’ schools. They knew there are drug experimenters among the boys and the girls. But if we teach them about the evils of these practices, aren’t we admitting to the world that THE KIDS IN OUR SCHOOL ARE BAD KIDS? Won’t the schools NOT tackling these problems point at those who do and say “They have that problem; not us.” And won’t that cause parents to enroll their kids elsewhere?

To an extent, the yeshivas were right. Small-minded people sometimes do think that way. But to their credit they came up with a solution. The modern day schools all banded together and decided to introduce those topics into their schools AT THE SAME TIME. They said, “We don’t know if it’s a problem here, but we do know it exists and we want to help our kids avoid it. So we’re not going to stick our heads in the sand ever again.” And besides the education they offered to their high school students, they made parents attend sessions at night on these topics. I attended them more than once. They had yeshiva kids who had been through drug rehab come and tell their first hand stories and talk about how wasted they were and how they almost lost their lives. Let me tell you, there is nothing more disturbing and nothing leaves a greater impression on you, than seeing a boy in a yarmulke or a girl in a long black skirt tell you about how they woke up after a three-day drug binge and didn’t know what day or time it was, where they were, or in whose bed they had slept – and what they had done there.

I thank God that those yeshivas had the courage to institute this education.

We need the same courage to introduce the subject of sexual abuse. And it cannot be limited to the modern yeshivos. It has to be across the board, in every one of them, including the chasidishe ones.

3. We have to teach all our children in school about inappropriate touching. We have to teach them about child abuse and the difference between a “potch” and a beating. We have to talk to our children about spousal abuse. And who to talk to if they witness it and how to report it.

And it can’t be reported to our existing ill-equipped rebbeim and principals. It has to be appropriately trained counselors, ombudsman and watchdogs.

And this education must take place in the schools for the following reasons:

(A) Most parents will not discuss it with their children at home.
(B) Most parents are not trained to discuss it properly.

We must have blanket education of all of our kids on this subject in a uniform manner in order for it to be most effective.

I’ve seen and reviewed the Torah Umesorah guidelines on child abuse. In and of themselves, they are not bad. The problem is: (1) They have not been uniformly and widely implemented, and are NOT mandatory (2) Without educating all our children about abuse, the guidelines are meaningless even if they were implemented and (3) There is no one in place who is appropriately trained for our children to report abuse to.

We can talk to our girls about taharas hamishpacha, we can discuss in graphic detail their menstrual flow, about why they should use sanitary napkins and not tampons, about why they should not hand a sefer directly to a rebbe – but we can’t talk (to our girls and our boys) about inappropriate touching!? I find that absurd.

I know that there are some stickers in frum homes with an abuse hotline number on it. But it is not in enough homes.

I guarantee you that for every call to Hatzalah, there is someone who should be calling or wants to call an abuse hotline, but doesn’t know whom to call. There should be an abuse hotline sticker under every Hatzalah sticker in every Jewish home.

And none of that matters if we don’t educate our kids in school about what abuse is and isn’t.

101 comments:

Project Shield said...

I am proud to say that I live in a Chicago where an entire organization has been created to effectively deal with the problem of sexual abuse in the frum community. Please do not misunderstand - it's not that it's so prevalent here(I dearly hope), but we realize that even one case is one case too many. Please visit our website at:

http://www.jcbchicago.org/pages/cli-shield.html

Tony Montana said...

When I was in yeshiva learning gemoro Makois, they didn't skip over the parts about the roiveh and the nirveh or the eidim to the niuf who saw kmach'chol b'shfoiferes. =Ever learn gemoro Avoida Zoro where it talks extensively about pedophilia, bestiality and other perversions?


The chachomim talked about it. Why should we be afraid to talk about it?

OrthoRev said...

It is late- I am very grumpy- and while contemplating the finer aspects of law- I came up with the following thought (or actually, stole, once again, from Savage).

We talk, talk, write, write, talk, discuss, pontificate- BUT...

IT IS JUST NOT ENOUGH.

Don't get me wrong- before this blog we had NO voice whatsoever- and that has indeed changed- but this is NOT enough.

The registry is a flat-out dumb idea. The yeshivas are utter experts at using their talmudic skills to grease-ball their way out of adhering to any sort of laws (governmental, ethical or otherwise). Whether it be paying taxes, conducting 'Ma'ser scams' etc.-- it is unrealistic of us to expect them to actually volunteer or even comply properly with an official law in respect of a registry (i.e. they would go so far as to chop off the finger of some dead rebbe and use it to scan as the 'fingerprint' for all 210 employed 'rabeyim’).

The answer MUST come from a sheer overload of embarrassment that the 'establishment' will change due to their own self-interest (the only way they ever act).

The only answer is to force the yeshivas to protect themselves- to act out of their own self-interest.

TO THIS END....

I PROPOSE....THAT...

[at least until the radio show gets supported]....

Every single Jew (or two per family) should send, via first-class mail, to R’ Kolko c/o Torah Temimah, a condom (or a gay porno subscription).

Yes- you heard me right.

It should be flowing out of the offices, the lobbies...

The secretaries should talk..

The shuls will start chattering...

They should die of embarrassment to see the mailman.

Then, and only then, can we expect any sort of apology and the beginning of the road to change.

OrthoRev.

P.S. I wonder what the Agudah/OU would be yelling if Nazi Germany STILL didn’t apologize??

ADMITNOTHING said...

I was involved with a MAJOR Flatbush Yeshivah ( On Coney Island Ave bet. L & M ). There was a serious issue of drugs in the dormitory. When "we" were called in to see what we can do about the problem. We identified the students involved and were assured that:

1. Drug Counseling would be provided to the students, and

2. The yeshivah would take steps to ensure that the problem does not re occur.

In a follow up conversation 2 weeks later , I was informed:

1. There is no drug problem in the school, and

2. The dinner is two wweks away and we do not want anything to happen that could affect our fundraising.

The "Fruit Handler" and the Head of the school, ( I do not consider him to be a Rosh yeshivah) is more concerned with the almighty dollar than savings the lives of their talmidim.

We live in such a "falcher velt" everyone in the yeshivah world is more concerned with public appearence and the brand name of their school than actually educating our children. If Chas V'Shalom your child is not cookie cut and fit the mold exactly, they are cast aside.

The amount of children going off or being turned off is staggering.

An aside.....Some people have asked me about my blog name, admitnothing. I reality, you should admit everything. I work in the community with very delicate issues, drug abuse, molestation, shalom bayis, domestic violence, etc. As it is all proprietary, I keep it all inside and do not discuss the cases I am involved with, hence admitnothing.

Talmid Of Philadelphia said...

I had Rabbi Moshe Eisemann as a rebbe in my second year of high school in the Yeshiva of Philadelphia about 45 years ago. He was from England and spoke the King's English impeccably which made him sound very wise and learned to us at the time. He convinced me that my lack of hasmada and enthusiasm for learning Torah had everything to do with my auto-erotic behavior, in which he expressed great deal of interest; how did I do it?, how frequently?, which hand did I prefer?, etc. He never physically molested me but he made me feel that my normal adolescent attraction towards girls was something to be ashamed of. It took me a long time to finally realize that these urges were perfectly normal and given to us by G-d for a good reason. He seemed like a successful rebbe at the Yeshiva of Philadelphia and I always wondered why he left to go to Baltimore. At the time the Philadelphia yeshiva was run by Reb Elya Shvei and Rabbi Shmuel Kaminestsky. Is it possible that the cover-up of Rabbi Eisemann‚s behavior began even before he came to Ner Israel?

Anonymous said...

ok, uo. Very noble objectives here, well written, not comatose.

I wanted to hand you a sefer, but was told that I can't.

I don't have hatzola stickers (hatzalah?) all over my house. I don't want more. I would, however, very much like to talk about sex. So would most of the people I know.

Parents should talk about having sex and do so as often as possible. Amen.

Thank you.

P.S.: I told my wife and she thanks you too.

Anonymous said...

Project Shield said...
I am proud to say that I live in a Chicago where an entire organization has been created to effectively deal with the problem of sexual abuse in the frum community. Please do not misunderstand - it's not that it's so prevalent here(I dearly hope), but we realize that even one case is one case too many. Please visit our website at:

http://www.jcbchicago.org/pages/cli-shield.html
---------------------------------
Just make sure that your local dayan,thug, Feurst does not interfere in with a cover up as he did in the past

Yankel said...

Just a brief comment here, applauding the idea of comprehensive sex education in yeshivahs.

First, a trial run can easily be made, focusing on physical and emotional abuse - hitting, beatings, screaming, name-calling, etc - without (initially) getting into the details of sexual behavior. Even the more prudish yeshivahs should have few "moral" qualms about teaching workshops that have not one thing to do with sex. After weighing the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of such a workshop, the issue of sexual abuse can be worked in. Starting slow might not be ideal, but it's more likely to get started.

Second, I remember learning in high school sugyos about bi'ah. Whether issurei kareis were violated at penetration or ejaculation. Some pretty technical stuff. (And, quite frankly, I think that if had learned what all that meant I would have understood the sugya better.) I don't remember skipping those sugyos because they were rated R.

I remember being told that masturbation was an aveirah. I don't remember them avoiding that for fear someone would get the idea to do it.

The truth is that most yeshivahs already discuss sexual matters with their students - but not in an organized, coherent manner. No one is advocating having a slideshow with pictures supplied by playboy magazine (or worse). But at least a little bit of context - that sex exists, that there is appropriate (when you're married) behavior and inappropriate behavior - is necessary.

Anonymous said...

can someone clarify for me what the problem with tampons are and why sanitary napkins are preferred?

Anonymous said...

some people have asked me about my blog name, anonymous. In my heart I know y I am a mouse, but my psychiatrist tells me not.

uoij, you are RIGHT.

We need, however, to ask the moietzes what to do next. What is daas Toirah on sex? When can we do it and how soon? Why must we wait until we are married? Why must we get married? Can't we just have fun?

So, now uoj, you see where this leads, to hellfire and damnation, the devil, the the pit. We must retreat back to the Middle Ages. We must hold onto the past. Back then, didn't they use a sheet?

The Agudah will take care of the registry. They do so much for the klal.

Avi, is my laundry ready yet?

Anonymous said...

Masmidim in Philly never have time to masturbate. They're busy. If they had access to the internet, they would. The internet, therefore, is the real problem.

Here is a perfect example of how spin doctors blame the victims. Only bums masturbate. Only bums think about girls. The best bochurim, what do they think about? Boys?

pro REAL jobs said...

Todays Asher Yatzar gedolim thinkthey know more then the Tannaim and Amoraim.
In times of the Tannaim there were practically no kollelim and people worked for a living including the chashuvey haeer.
Personally i think the problems today stem alot from the fact that our Rabbanim changed judaism from the way it was in the times of the gemorah and Rambam.

Anonymous said...

In Arab fundamentalist circles, girls begin covering their hair when they are seven.

The frum community has more in common with hamas than we want to admit. We are frum. We are krum.

We are better.

Thank the Lrd, we have uoj to keep us in check. Soon, uo, the State Department will be calling. There is a future for the man of peace.

Anonymous said...

I am getting the feeling that the whole tone of UOJ is changing from its mission to protect our children by "outing" molesters and critiquing corruption in yeshivas, to beginning to focus on necessary steps that must be taken by our community to create a system in which children are raised in a healthy wholesome safe manner.

Yahser Koach. Keep it up. As a mental health professional in the frum community, what this shows me is that UOJ is willing to learn from this dialogue, not just spout HIS opinion. Let us hope that as this becomes more obvious to all, that the powers that be (Aguda, Tora Umesora, the Yeshivas, Gedolim, etc.) will ALSO be willing to learn. I understand that Torah Tmima has even implemented changes in its policies that are meant to avoid another tragedy.

Of course, a full apology to victims should be part of the process, but only a part. There is much to be done. Some victims may find even more healing in the actions of creating safety than by apologies without actions. The exact details of how all of this should occur is known only to Hashem, but he has given us an opportunity to figure it out. Let's do it!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
can someone clarify for me what the problem with tampons are and why sanitary napkins are preferred?
----------------------------------
As a genral rule tampons are more prone to causing infection build up then from a pad, but another reason it is safer for an unmarried women assuming she is still a virgin..

Tuvya said...

I think the lawyer should get his facts straight before he writes.

1) I was not by Mandels speech, but this lawyer has obviously not thoroughly read the mainstream media (i.e., jewish week) covering it. The question was about sex education. To that question Mandel answered that it is not realistic and he is correct. Sex education means to teach children about their body parts, sexual organs, appropriate sexual behaviors, birth control, etc. etc. etc. This should not be taught in yeshivos. Children and teens should be informed that they can discuss these issues IN PRIVATE with a designated staff person (e.g., mashgiach). Whether this is done as often as it should be is questionable, but that is the issue that Mandel was discussing (I think).

2) The lawyer above is discussing sex abuse education. THis should be done and is being done. I personally particpated in a parent training course sponsored by my childrens yeshiva (mainstream yeshivish), located in my this yeshiva, and given by Counterforce, which is a division of Torah Umesorah. The course clearly covered the topic of sexual abuse--that it exists, how to recognize it, and seek professional help if you suspect it. As far as I know, this same group (Counterforce) gives this course in most Flatbush/B.P. schools.

UOJ,

I assume that this whole post from your lawyer friend is just one many attempts to try to promote modern orthodox hashkafa (in this case....more open sexuality).

To give you some credit, I did notice recently that you cut down on some of the silly impersonations and general "leitzonus" tone

Al Pacino said...

If UOJ is still looking for R' Abba, he can try the Fallsburg Fire Dept. The bochurim once wrote him into the ballot as a joke and actually got him elected as Fire Chief.

southernyid said...

Mr. PAsik:

you wrote

“[W]hen an audience member asked whether sex education could help to strengthen children’s knowledge of inappropriate behavior and empower them to come forward if someone violated them, Mandel responded that sex education was ‘not something realistic’ in a community that stresses modesty.”

There is so much wrong with that sentence, that it sends shivers up my spine.


and then you proceed to agree with the statement. If abuse has nothing to do with sex then sex education is not necessary.

Children can, and should, be taught about inappropriate actions and how to protect themselves and what to do and who to tell. But sex education is not required.

Indeed, we all learned all the gemoras discussed above (i think in chasiddidhe yeshivas they skip them) and were schooled in the basics of procreating that way if our parents did not fill us in prior. (mine did, but lets be honest, we all learned it on the playground way before then).

my point is do not confuse the issue and do not add an item to the agenda. Yeshivas should not teach sex ed.

boog said...

This talk is all well and good but meaningful change will only come about through legislation that has teeth.

The focus must be on the NYS Legislature.

Mandatory Registry, Fingerprinting, DNA samples from every staff member and for every new hire in our Yeshivas, Camps, and Mosdos.

No exceptions, no loopholes.

State Inspections twice a year. Mandatory reporting to Dept of Health or other designated Agency at least once a year.

Failure to comply: Immediate loss of Tax Exempt Status, State Accreditation (No regents or regents Diplomas), loss all forms of Federal, State, and City Financial Aid (includes morning-evening Bus Transportation). Principals, Board of Directors of the Mosad held culpable and subject to criminal charges to endangering the welfare of children entrusted to their care.

Anything less is like trying to bring down a rabid bear with a popgun.

Anonymous said...

Re: Registry and all other ideas:

E-mail me at bes1267@yahoo.com

I have stood up to the powers that be before - I posted about my experience with Torah Temimah.

Please contact me, but I need real names for it to work.

Thanks,

Eli Greenwald

Still waiting...

Anonymous said...

so, ORTHOREV did YOU send anyone any condoms yet?

Anonymous said...

As a mother and mental health professional, I have been talking to my children about safety from sexual predators for years (as well as safety about the more common place things like crossing the street and going into the water too deep if not proficient in swimming. While I agree that it would be wonderful for our schools to talk with our children about this issue, and while I agree wholeheartily that equating sex with sexual abuse is completely off the mark in every way described by the lawyer (not to mention invalidating to the victims), we need to not wait for that dream to come true. In another thread a mother asked where the real men are and what are they going to do. Well this is something we can do. Each and every one of us, in the privacy of our homes, without ever having to reveal our true identities.

Easy for me to say, as someone with training who knows how to talk to kids about this and also knows that they don't get scared or scarred for life by this talk of safety (as they don't stop crossong streets when we tell them how dangerous that can be). If you want to do something type the phrase "talking to kids about sexual abuse" into your search engine. You will probably get over a million results, as i did when I did this. It will tell you how, and it will address your fears. There are books, with parent guides to help you.

We can't just have the kids, we have to do the parenting too. It is easy and rewarding to do the parts of parenting that we like or that come naturally. It is the mark and test of a trully good parent who does the other stuff as well.

Pray for a yeshiva system that does what the lawyer suggests, but don't wait for that.

Educate yourself

Educate your kids.

Also, talk to them about it once a year, not once and never again. Make sure you have quiet private time wthem for maintenance to get to hear what goes on with them good ang bad on a regular basis.

Tuvya is a Dodo said...

So he chides the attorney to get his facts straight and then goes on to speculate what Mandel did?

Someone tell Tuvya this is real world where children are suffering. He seems to have been beamed into Wonderland with Alice and friends.

Dovid Harris said...

Tuvya is a riot. He takes credit for the slowdown in impersonations, thinking that UOJ listens to his admonitions. It's actually by default because the jokesters are running out of people to impersonate.

Yitzy Sturman said...

"Masmidim in Philly never have time to masturbate."

It's also hard to get away with it when Rabbi Golombek snoops around the dorm and runs in to rip the covers off any bochur who looks suspicious.

Anonymous said...

tuvya'le you festering moron, I as a victim of rabbinic sexual abuse find u to be repulsive and offensive to say the least. I am only replying to your 2 idiotic critiques of the good lawyer for others to see. For u no form of dialogue can ever set u straight.

1)"This should not be taught in yeshivos. Children and teens should be informed that they can discuss these issues IN PRIVATE with a designated staff person (e.g., mashgiach)." HASHEM YERACHAIM! You want victims to go to a Mashgiach and no to the police? Are u senile? Last week the Gerrerist "Mashgiach" Avrum Leizerowitz ran to Israel after a victim went to the DA for groping him inside his pants and a heck of alot more which should not be mentioned in public! Since when do u give a cat to watch over the milk? I can't believe u were stupid enough to exhibit your idiocy for all to see! Besides, sex ed does not have to contain exactly all the vulgaries the goyim put into it. U knew what the lawyer meant. Your a twisted word player and probably a pervert in defense of his pears.

2)Tell me one B.P. or Chassidish yeshiva that let Counterforce in through the door, ever. The last organization to be in charge of this is Aguda/Torah Umesorah. They dropped the ball years ago by alerting school directors yet forbidding them to release the info to parents and employees. How was a school director or principle to react if he wasn't supposed to share the info with anyone. And they deemed it wise to trust the principle to do something and not the parents when the problem was the principle himself! (e.g. Margo and Leizerowitz)

Anonymous said...

shiva asar b'tammuz and uoj has done teshuvah.

Torah Umesorah has already created the wheel. There is discussion about it

in mainstream yeshivish circles (flatbush). Children know their body parts. Boruch Hashem. Nice to meet you.

As long as we and our children are protected from modern orthodox hashkafa, we are safe.

Anonymous said...

I received sex ed in sixth grade. We had a goyishe booklet. We learned all we had to know. When I was twelve and didn't understand biah and shichvas zera, I asked my father who never explained. My rebbe never explained. I wasn't molested and have children, boruch Hashem. Sex education didn't make the difference. The same goes for personal hygiene. You can lead a horse to a shower, but some prefer to stink.

Still Wonderin' said...

Instead of Sex Ed., how about Human Ed?

Unless chassidishe and yeshivish people believe themselves to be above the rest of the human race, why not start admitting that teens have normal sexual urges, that adults are subjectively inject their own issues with power, control, fear, and personal insecurities when educating youths and setting communal standards for appropriate behavior, and that old men with gray beards don't always have the answers to everything.

Introduce these concepts in a few Human Ed. classes and perhaps the frum community can start digging itself out of the mess it has created for itself over the last 25 years.

Auto Report World Editors said...

The important question is whether or not the current frummie attitude about sex is authentic to Jewish tradition.

As a number of posters have mentioned, the gemara speaks very openly about sex, its mechanics and its perversions. Rashi's commentary on Pinchas leaves nothing to the imagination. There was the sage of the Talmud who hid under his Rebbe's bed to learn the way a Torah scholar performs the mitzvah of making love to his wife. A Bar Ilan professor recently published a paper quoting the Ramban and R. Yaakov Emden as permitting some non marital sex under the rubric of pilagshut [providing other mitzvot concerning niddah and z'nut are observed]. Shir HaShirim, Artscroll's abomination notwithstanding, is indeed a poem filled with sexual and romantic allusions.

But whereas the Gemara says that young men and women of Jerusalem would meet on Jewish holy days, frummies get their gotchkes all twisted up over pizza shops.

We aren't Puritans. We're Jews. Yes, Judaism demands public modesty in the area of sex, because it recognizes how powerful the sex drive is. I see no reason why competent Jewish educators cannot educate Jewish teens about Jewish attitudes about sex. The discussions in the Gemara about sex took place in public and the last time I looked, Rashi's commentary on Pinchas has not been bowdlerized.

Mandel's remarks as well as Tuvya and southeryid's comments show how allergic and non-Jewish frummies have become in regard to the subject of sex. You illustrate the attorney's fear vividly. One would imagine with so much of Vayikra devoted to appropriate sexual behavior that it would be a natural part of the curriculum in Jewish schools. Of course, that might make some of the faculty nervous - not because of modesty but because they are acting inappropriately.

They'll teach evolution in yeshivas before there will be sex ed.

Anonymous said...

Hello, Southern Yid,

I'm not dbpesq, the author of these posts. We're different people. I'm an ebp esq, close, but different.

I hestitate to take any firm, public position on teaching adolescents about procreation in the yeshivas. I would like to read more about the pros and cons. Nevertheless, as a father, responsible for my childrens upbringing, my sense is that some moderate and modest level of age-appropriate in-school education, perhaps in small groups, is appropriate, particularly given the times we live in, where the abuse problem has, in my humble opinion, risen to such a level of significance that a communal response is needed. This communal response should not solely be the province of rabbis and m'chanchim, but needs the participation of parents as well.

Elliot B. Pasik, Esq.
Long Beach, New York
efpasik@aol.com

Anonymous said...

I agree with southernyid that sex education may not be necessary, but I do not think that it is enough to just teach about sexual abuse.

There is a problem that we have in that kids grow up thinking that normal attraction is abnormal and so, I think, some end up molesting and doing abnormal things. I don't think that people are born molesters - just like I don't believe that people are born gay. Environment is a likely contributor. When kids learn early on that girls are treif, some will end up gravitating to the same sex - perhaps gay behavior or molestation.

THe answer is not sex education. I disagree with the lawyer who says that sex education doesn't lead to increased teen sexual activity. However, we must acknowledge that attraction to the opposite sex is normal, correct and preferred. It needs to be sanctified in marriage. When someone confesses to a Rebbi that he spoke to a girl or thought about a girl, rather than making him feel that he is sick, let him know that he is normal and healthy and explain the beauty of the Torah - explain why we need to wait until marriage, etc. Making a teenager feel abnormal for liking girsl results in abnormal behavior. This is the type of "sex education" that we need.

Avi Pekier said...

"Rabbi Golombek snoops around the dorm and runs in to rip the covers off any bochur who looks suspicious."

He wasn't just looking for hand jobs. Some bochurim were guilty of the cardinal sin of hiding a pocket size radio or walkman.

Yeshiva Parent said...

Eli Greenwald,

We are with you my friend. Some of us however have a technical problem. If all of my children were already enrolled in yeshivos, I don't think they would be expelled if the Hanhala doesn't take kindly to my signature behind an effort they dread. Some of our younger children are not yet old enough to enter the system and I fear the mafiosos could decline their acceptance.

Call me chicken but I will not risk being blackballed when others are in a safer position.

Southernyid said...

Mr DBP and EBP esq :


Sorry for the mix-up. I still beleive that sex ed as it is understood in the "velt" has no place in a yeshiva. That is the job of parents, my father discussed it with me and I discussed it with my son when I felt he was ready. I will do the same with my other sons and my wife did the honors with our daughters. When I learned these sugyas in yeshiva they were covered with the assumption that everyone understood the basic premise that was being discussed. no-one ever asked "hey what is that?" So I assume everyone else knew enough to understood as well or else they asked in private.

All children need to be taught, at home and at school, to recognize inappropriate behaviour just as they are taught to stay away from strangers. They need to be taught that danger can be, unfortunately, close to home.

Anonymous said...

But, ep, has the problem really escalated to epic proportions? If bochurim and bochurois would shout bloody murder if they get so much as touched would solve much of the problem. This education anyone can receive. It's basic, not detailed, no distribution of condoms required. The roshei yeshiva who have tried to be bad generally get caught, their institutions closed, even prior to the void the world was before uoj, when darkness was on the face of the deep.

Everybody knows somebody about whom there were rumors. Not all rumors are true. Why underestimate our youth's abiltiy to make intelligent responses to unwanted advances, with or without power trips. The moisdois worry about false allegations, but who even thinks this way unless there's cause. Normal people don't brag about abuse because it victimizes them, makes them appear weak. When they do complain, the odds are that they are not lying. Who wants to be a victim? There are better ways to take revenge than to mark yourself as tainted.

Research has been conducted on the sexual orientation and activities of bochurim. The hanhola is against this in every scenario, but maybe Marvin Schick can get ahold of the data and pay for a public advertisement in the Jewish Press.

JWB said...

July 13, 2006

Defrocked Rabbi Drops Case Seeking Anonymous Bloggers’ Identities

End of Suit Is a Victory for First Amendment Rights on the Internet

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Rabbi Mordechai Tendler, the former leader of an Orthodox Jewish congregation in New Hempstead, N.Y., has withdrawn the proceeding he filed in Ohio in an attempt to subpoena the identities of four anonymous bloggers who wrote on the Web about his alleged sexual misconduct.

Public Citizen attorney Paul Alan Levy represented the bloggers, www.rabbinicintegrity.blogspot.com, www.jewishsurvivors.blogspot.com, www.jewishwhistleblower.blogspot.com and www.newhempsteadnews.blogspot.com. The four bloggers had anonymously posted material on their Web sites describing the former rabbi’s alleged misconduct and sexual harassment of female congregants whom he had been advising.


Tendler had filed petitions to subpoena the bloggers’ identities, both in Ohio and California district courts. Public Citizen, which has been a strong defender of First Amendment rights on the Internet, has filed a motion that Tendler’s California petition should be denied because it would violate the bloggers’ constitutional right to free speech.

“This just goes to show the importance of protecting anonymity, because as soon as Tendler found out that we had filed a motion against him, he withdrew his petition,” Levy said. “He was never prepared to prove that the allegations against him were false – he only wanted his critics’ names so that he could go after them. The First Amendment demands this kind of protection for citizens using their right to free speech.”

The Forward said...

http://www.forward.com/articles/8103

It's interesting that Rabbi Blau comes out in support of anonymous bloggers who trash Mordy Tendler and other abusers.

It is then no surprise that Steven I. Weiss criticizes the bloggers. The fool wrote on Canonist.com that UOJ is a bum for not adhering to the same standards as a paid journalist. I think Weiss's other hang up is that UOJ has been bashing Sruli Singer. It's not widely known that Steven I. Weiss was a ben bayis in Singer's home.

Pilegesh said...

Speaking of pilagshim, remember that "hotline" in Brooklyn that was featured in NY Mag? Avi Shafran was quoted as saying that the guy behind it is "a nut with a psychological problem." Azoy zogt er about an inyan that's mutter according to many poskim. When it comes to child abuse, all of a sudden Shafran is the Goodwill Ambassador on behalf of molesting perverts.

The J Net said...

"One would imagine with so much of Vayikra devoted to appropriate sexual behavior that it would be a natural part of the curriculum in Jewish schools."

The Reform and COnservative skip out on Vayikra for Sunday school curriculum with the attitude that kashrus and znus are not nogaya for progessive "Judaism."

They actually say that Vayikra is not relevant.

Anonymous said...

Easy for me to say, as someone with training who knows how to talk to kids about this and also knows that they don't get scared or scarred for life by this talk of safety (as they don't stop crossong streets when we tell them how dangerous that can be). If you want to do something type the phrase "talking to kids about sexual abuse" into your search engine. You will probably get over a million results, as i did when I did this. It will tell you how, and it will address your fears. There are books, with parent guides to help you.

We can't just have the kids, we have to do the parenting too. It is easy and rewarding to do the parts of parenting that we like or that come naturally. It is the mark and test of a trully good parent who does the other stuff as well.

Pray for a yeshiva system that does what the lawyer suggests, but don't wait for that.

Educate yourself

Educate your kids.

Also, talk to them about it once a year, not once and never again. Make sure you have quiet private time wthem for maintenance to get to hear what goes on with them good ang bad on a regular basis.`````````````````````````````

To: anon of the above article
You mention we should google.
Great idea . Problem is that our own BIG Rabbis are telling us to BAN the internet.
Lots of people have done so because thier rav or rosh yeshiva told them .
I m just wondering if the real reasoning was to make sure thatwe dont read important blogs like this one and not to read things that the rov can not handle such as sexual abuse ed etc.

Yoely Fischer said...

Does that shmuck Tendler have to pay the defendants' legal fees now that he dropped that frivolous lawsuit?

Hymie "THE ESSWHY" Balzich said...

My sex ed was in fourth grade when I ekeled the chadameh's menush when my parents were in Deal. What bizazz this meynish had, and an abo you just couldn't get your head out of. My bedarts turn blue at the thought of this gee. As a matter of fact, me and my pals Hecky and Shwecky geebahd this one on the dining room table once and it was a huge dahak when Hecky almost hit me in the eye - no sketch! Ibe what you poor itchys go through. Just plain ibe. Not a C-Man among ya!

Pinchos Steinmetz said...

There are some rebbeyim in black hat mesivtos that will have very frank sexual discussions with the shiur. The question is what is the age appropriate entry level for younger kids?

boog said...

Eli;

Very valid point you raise. No one wants to be the guinea pig.

That's why legislation that forces mandatory compliance on Registration, Fingerprinting, and DNA samples with
stringent penalties for non-compliance as I outlined above is the only solution to this problem.

Anonymous said...

eli, take comfort from uoj. He is not afraid.

dbpesq said...

I want to respond to the three people who recently wrote (taken as a group) critically about my post: Southernyid, Tuvya, and Elliot B. Pasik.

I guess I was not as clear as I should have been (or thought I was).

According to the Jewish Week story, it was the parent-questioner at the YTT meeting (Mandel & Twerski Show) who linked sex ed with teaching children about abuse. “[W]hen an audience member asked whether sex education could help to strengthen children’s knowledge of inappropriate behavior and empower them to come forward if someone violated them, Mandel responded that sex education was ‘not something realistic’ in a community that stresses modesty.”

Again, I was not there so that all I have to go on is the way the reporter recorded and reported it. The questioner asked if sex ed would help children recognize inappropriate behavior (i.e., sexual abuse) and Mandel said that sex ed is not realistic in these yeshivos.

I think that Mandel's answer is poor on two fronts: Appropriate sex ed, in my humble opinion, SHOULD be taught in yeshivos. BUT THAT SUBJECT ASIDE, I do NOT think that sex ed and SEX ABUSE ED are the same thing! I agree that they are separate and distinct entities and whether or not you feel sex ed should be taught in yeshivos, SEX ABUSE ED MUST BE TAUGHT IN YESHIVOS for without it, it will never be stopped.

I think Mandel missed the boat in his answer. HE should have made the distinction and suggested that sex abuse ed should be 'mandatory' (whatever that means) on all yeshivos.

In essence, I agree with all three writers on those two points: (1) that sex abuse ed and sex ed are two different things and (2) that sex abuse ed should/must be taught in all yeshivos.

My only remaining gripe is with Tuvya: I DID read the Jewish Week article very carefully, and I got it right and you got it wrong, my friend. Secondly, I do not know how pervasive/effective Counterforce training is in yeshivos. To my knowledge, it is voluntary and requires registration. In the example I gave of the drug seminars in my daughter's school, it was really, really, seriously mandatory: Every student and every parent had to attend and sign in and there were penalties for not attending. Something like that is absolutely needed in EVERY yeshiva for sex abuse ed.

Lastly, while I voiced my opinion that sex ed should be taught in the yeshivos, I moved on from there to talking exclusively about abuse ed. If you see this as "one [of] many attempts to promote modern orthodox hashkafa (in this case.... more open sexuality)" then you are a really bigoted, paranoid, and probably perverse or perverted person. I want to protect all 'kinderlach' from abuse. That should happen effectively in every school, from Teaneck to Williamsburg.

In this period of time when we are attempting to fix 'sinas chinam' and that which separates one Jew from his fellow Jew, let's try to look for (and at) solutions for the Klal and not point fingers at any one element more than another.

Please excuse my irony, but if you look at the rogues gallery of those recently seriously accused of (Orthodox) rabbinic abuse - Lanner, Gafni, Tendler, Kolko - you see that all types of frum Jews are represented in the abusers. May those who work to eradicate abuse represent all streams and elements of Orthodoxy, as well, may our efforts be blessed by Hashem, and may He see that by those efforts made in 'achdus' we are truly deserving of redemption, 'bimheira b'yameinu, amen.'

Anonymous said...

This is why gaiva of the plain keeps quiet. Lots to be gaivadik about.

No fan of Canonist said...

SIW likes to consider himself a journalist, but lacks the ethics and responsibility of a real journalist. He is wont to publish misinformation and private correspondence, and is wont not to disclose conflicts of interest and hidden agendas. He is unafraid to blog under his own name because he has nothing to lose by it - he has no job, he has no friends, he has no children, he was already expelled from every school he attended, and most people already dislike him.

Tuvya said...

Mr. Dbpesq,

Thank you for the clarification. We have alot more in common than I thought. Especially that you confirmed my main point and write

"In essence, I agree with all three writers on those two points: (1) that sex abuse ed and sex ed are two different things and (2) that sex abuse ed should/must be taught in all yeshivos."


Yet, a few points still need to be clarified.

1) You write two things a) "Mandel said that sex ed is not realistic in these yeshivos." Then write "I think that Mandel's answer is poor on two fronts: Appropriate sex ed, in my humble opinion, SHOULD be taught in yeshivos."

Mandel would likely not disagree with you. He said that it is not realistic. You might not be aware of cultural factors when you say that it SHOULD be taught.


2) You write that "Mandel missed the boat in his answer. HE should have made the distinction and suggested that sex abuse ed should be 'mandatory' (whatever that means) on all yeshivos."

Even according to your reading of the Jewish Week, Mandel was not asked about abuse; he was asked about sex ed. How can one fault the man for not answering a question that he was not asked.

3) I apologize if my comment about the "modern orthodox" hashkafa was hurtful. I just ask you to view it in context of this blog. The author consistenly disparages all that is sacrosanct to "chareidi" society, including attacking its leaders and practices. So, If I overreacted, it is based on my mindset while reading this blog.

I agree with what you wrote

" In this period of time when we are attempting to fix 'sinas chinam' and that which separates one Jew from his fellow Jew, let's try to look for (and at) solutions for the Klal and not point fingers at any one element more than another."

and would ask you also to remember your remarks when making comments like "Rabbi Twerski’s undeserved, premature, ill-timed and ill-advised “haskamah” of Margo as “a man of great honor”

or "We are led by small-minded naysayers, by the “sha-shtill” crowd – the Margulies, the Twerskis, the Mandels, the Shafrans, the Schicks of our world "

I will conclude with your words

may our efforts be blessed by Hashem, and may He see that by those efforts made in 'achdus' we are truly deserving of redemption, 'bimheira b'yameinu, amen.'

Auto Report World Editors said...

Please take a moment to include captive Israeli soldiers Regev, Goldwasser and Shalit and the families of the 10 Israeli soldiers who have fallen in recent combat in our tefillot.

Though friends and family of Goldwasser didn't want to comment, Regev was described as a quiet young man of integrity who attends minyan twice a day while working and going to school.

I talked to my brother who lives in J'lem. The mood sounds very serious. Though there has not been a general mobilization, pilots and technical crews have been called up from the reserves. Debka also reports that a reserve armored division was activated - though these may be engineers and technical crews to service and repair tanks and equipment.

Let's hope that the Israeli soldiers suffer no more casualties.

I have no problem with fighting a war with Hizbollah (or Hamas). The problem is that this is a war that Hizbollah and their Iranian sponsors want. Why give them what they want? Or at least, when they want it.

Wordsmith said...

A new word coined by Boog that is slated by Oxford to enter the lexicon.

'Shafranitis'

The methodology employed by a sleazy public relations hack to defend molesters and other corruption in an organization. The defense tactics amount to nothing more than pure unadulterated KaKa.

After Avi Shafran (a.k.a. Tuvya), circa 2006, a stooge at Agudath Israel of America, who penned a facetious op-ed in defense of the historically infamous Margo-Twerski-Mandel show that attempted to cover up the crimes of a molester, Yehuda Kolko.

Baal H. Bos said...

You will never get the cooperation of the yeshivos for a universal registry. It makes way too much sense for these fahrfrumpte shkotzim dressed like rabbonim. You are talking about the same people who want to assur water. Effing water!

We've been using the same recipe for water since 1 Nissan, 0001 and our putz veytig rabbis more than 5760 years later think they can justify their bilking of the nation by saying that invisible bugs in the water are treif? They must think we are RETARDS!

The next psak will assur milk because in the milk there is invisible meat. You can't see it and it is indetectable but it is there, invisible meat, yes, that's right, so all milk is now ossur. If you can get your bottle of Best Moo up to the Moon and zoom in on it with the Hubble Telescope you would clearly see that all milk have these microscopic t-bone steaks floating in there and now all milk is treif.

Honestly, since Reb Moshe handled all the heavy lifting with his groundbreaking work, he left this generation in the dust with nothing to do. So they either come out with idiotic halachic minutae or turn on little boys and rape them.

Getting back to my solution, forget the top-down approach. I say we flip the script and go bottom-up on these posers.

We tell every child, before they enter a yeshiva, that if any Rabbi, any Beard, any Poser tries to get his finger up their litlte tush or tries to juggle his beitzim - the proper act is to punch, bite, kick and scream until said rabbi's nuts are rolling around on the floor and the rabbi is crying in pain.

We even tell our kids that if the Rabbi tells you to drop your pants, what he really menas is to please bite me until I am castrated and then run to the police.

I'm telling you, you have to go ghetto on the muther effers. Show them that they are not in control. We need to Tupac every one of their asses into submission Old School -

Anonymous said...

Of course SIW is upset at UOJ, SIW tries to be a professional journalist and to influences the community. However, for the most part he was not able to an effective voice for anything.

Then comes UOJ and single handedly put the “frum” world leaders into state of fear and into emergency meetings….

Anonymous said...

Caped crusader uoj, is mucking muck, raking rake, cleaning slate. Msn, beware. He could reveal the giant fraud microsoft corporation is, but bill gates isn't gjhewooooish. SO, Avi Shafran, Shmuel Bloom, Margo Lipa, you are next. Kill. UOJ, our marine, our submarine, with a deadly, lethal, anonymous parachute. He's the guy of our moment. SIW is jello, nobody cares, a pseudo intellectual. Nothing pseudo about uoj except his nym. NEM that enemies of truth, abusers of children, teens, manipulators of public opinion, selfish schmucks, bad guys everywhere. Whop. Bop. Beware the caped crusader and your own covered sins.

Tuvya, ask your rov if the internet is assur and let us know what he says. If he says, eppis, that it's mammish assur, don't come back here. Let the sinners wallow in sin. They want to. Why? because it's the drei vochen and they really want to do tshuvo without sinas chinom. Don't give them any excuses to do more avayrois. They are bitter and spiteful leitzonim, mean spirited dopes saying true and ugly things about our yeshivois, corrupt moisdois, next (before we kill them) besmirching really great moisdois like chaim berlin, lo alaynu. They (me) are enemies of emess, bad people. Stay away. Gawk somewhere else. Join the salvation army. Ring your bell on thirteenth or coney island avenue. Enemies of Toyreh beware.

Emergency meetings, no joke. They are petrified. Some people actually believe what they read in the newspapers. How can the Agudah, working closely with the institutions so accused, stab their enemies in the back? Can we blackball them, refuse them aliyos, give back their contributions (forget that). Create a golem, mazikin, shadim. Too many shades have been drawn. Time to close the windows. Time to turn the clock back. Tatty, where are you. We need gedoylim now (to the tune of we want moshiach now) because we know the truth. We haven't always told the truth. Why should we have to now?

Anonymous said...

"WE ARE SICK."

This might be a plausible answer for the moisdois to use. The reason they cannot make a statement or do anything, anything positive, is because the hanhola is sick. Come back tomorrow when the wizard will return.

Anonymous said...

HOT OFF THE PRESS!!!!!

Apparently Ner Israel is going suggest the appointment of an independent(?) expert who will agree to take calls from and/or meet people who found themselves - during their time as bochrim in the yeshiva - in uncomfortable situations with Mario 'the groper' Eisemann. Ner Israel's complaint against UOJs blog and the accusations he has posted against Eisemann, are that UOJ could have invented all of the victims himself and written all of their accounts himdself. None of them are identified and none of their testimonies can be verified. It could be a case of irresponsible rechilus, they say, and one cannot rely on a blog to justify the crucification of a senior yeshiva rebbi (why not?, I say).

The independent expert will apparently preserve the anonymity of the victims while taking note of their accusations and he/she will report back to NIRC as to whether the claims are valid.

That is their plan.

I must say that the indepenndent expert idea is a good one but I think it should be UOJ who appoints him. Then the guy might really be independent. Otherwise it might turn into a Mrs Berel Weisbord situation.

Meanwhile....any news from Baltimore? Has the groper been spotted or is he still 'out of town'?

kal v'chomer and mussar haskel said...

Coaches Accused Of Using Screws To Torture Gymnasts

LONGWOOD, Fla. -- Two coaches at a local gym could face criminal charges for harming young athletes. Seminole County investigators said the coaches used drywall screws to discipline gymnasts.


One of the coaches admits to stabbing training gymnasts with drywall screws for years. Investigators said it happened at Ace Gymnastics in Longwood, where one of the owners is an Olympian.

Gymnastics is physically grueling enough, without getting jabbed over and over with drywall screws until you bleed. Drywall screws are sharp, and the threads get progressively bigger.

Seminole County sheriff's investigators said Coach Mike Turner and another coach repeatedly stabbed one of the boys and a brother repeatedly with dry wall screws, breaking the skin on their buttocks, leaving permanent scarring.


Last year, their mother noticed the scars during bathing and found out what was happening. Investigators said she told the owner, former Olympian Joan Moore Gnat, about it and they said Ace Gymnastics hired a new head coach and made sure the practice stopped.

But Ace never told all the other parents about it, never reported the alleged abuse to law enforcement and kept the two coaches on staff.

Eyewitness News asked Gnat what she didn't alert the parents and tell them there was a problem going on.

"Because there wasn't another problem at the time," she said. "It was a resolved issue with the parent and it was something that had happened months before that."

Investigators said the boys, ages 8 and 10, have been in counseling for a year and recently the counselor convinced the mother to report the abuse to law enforcement.

A second mother has since come forward, saying her son was also subjected to the drywall screw for less than perfect form.

"If they weren't tight enough or in the right positions," the mother, who didn't want to be identified, told Eyewitness News. "He just said it hurt. He's a child. He's not gonna go into detail, but he said it hurt and it was degrading."

She said she just found out from another parent a few days ago.
"Children were being stuck, child to child, breaking skin," she said.

Investigators said Turner admitted to have been doing it for eight years. Younger Coach Chris Bonn told investigators Turner did it to him as a student, so he learned to do it as a coach.

Investigators said Turner's reasoning was a gymnast's mistake could cause a much more serious injury than a stab wound from a little screw. Investigators don't see it as protecting the gymnasts. They see it as a crime and believe prosecutors should, too.

The mothers said they believe their sons never spoke up about the abuse for a number of reasons; they were intimidated, they did not want to jeopardize their training and they did not want to appear to be crybabies.

Say What? said...

Baal H. Bos,

I'm surprised at you. Your generally sensible posts have gone off the deep end. There are plenty of reasons to criticize corrupt rabbis, but your fixation on bugs in the water supply is way off the mark. New York City takes advantage of a loophole in Federal Law to get around filtering requirements, hence the horrid looking copepods that flow from the resevoirs. The very R' Moishe Feinstein ztl who you laud, poskens that something barely visible to the human eye and only identifiable under a microscope is ossur. If you wish to consume mini crustaceans, please do not make yourself an advocate for the rest of us.

True, R' Hershel Schechter & Rav Belsky hold it is not a problem, but they are the only two yechidim and their lomdus is difficult to grasp.

We have much important work to do, so let's get back to thrashing Margo and other evil individuals to ensure they never put another child in harm's way.

Anonymous said...

if by "achdus," in the context of this blog, tuvyah is suggesting the modern orthodox are JUST AS BAD! See, we're no different. If you cut us, we bleed. We are the same under our knitted serugies and kova/borsalinos, 24 x 24's (the chazoin ish was maykil). You may be right, tuvie baby. You may be right. Wherever there is sham, uoj says you are eating ham, except some have the chutzpah to make believe they have an internationally recognized hechsher. We make the rules. We suffer no fools. You are kicked out, rejected, ejected, in cheirem, not part of the community as we define klal yisroel, as recognized by our publicity in yated and hamoida, flatbush and lakewood, god's little acre.

Tuvie, and people like him, are fakers. The fake frum, pride of our people, founders and paid loafers in our yeshivois and koilelim, taking advantage of others while they alone stop the world from being destroyed, tohu vavohu, iran/iraq, it's our tefiloys, our learning which props up the world. We are pretty powerful. We have moisdois and Toyreh. The ones we've abused and neglected, with whom we've failed, let them go to another yeshiva. So, we lost a little income. There will always be another sucker - and we're the Am Hashem.

In the spirit of this blog, tuvie, baby, take a hike to camp agudah overnight.

Ezra Friedberg said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

ner israel is a responsible institution, responsible for the protection of family interests. Perhaps, Dr. Weinreb could be trusted? He's not independent enough. He might be too independent. He represents the ou. He might tell the truth. We need someone recommended by the agoodah AND we will videotape the testimonies, disguising the voice of the interviewer, so we can impugn their testimony later.

the lawyers know who to call. they know what to do. they are doing it.

Private Investigator said...

Is the attorney Yaakov Neuberger one of the brothers?

A partner at the Baltimore firm Abramoff Neuberger Linder.

Saint Ignatius of Boro Park said...


“…Ner Israel's complaint against UOJs blog and the accusations he has posted against Eisemann, are that UOJ could have invented all of the victims himself and written all of their accounts himdself. None of them are identified and none of their testimonies can be verified “


UOJ said that there would be a civil suit. UOJ is a REAL man of honor and I am sure he would not say that
if he did not have depositions, affidavits or whatever.

mt mehdi said...

"The very R' Moishe Feinstein ztl who you laud, poskens that something barely visible to the human eye and only identifiable under a microscope is ossur"
----------

Prove it ! I won't hold my breath waiting.

Anonymous said...

mark. New York City takes advantage of a loophole in Federal Law to get around filtering requirements, hence the horrid looking copepods that flow from the resevoirs.============================================================
Precisely as by shayshes yimay braishis there was no filter either. Do you think there were copods there too because there were no filters implemented?

Whither Yudi Kolko? said...

The NY Times, in typical form, is running an article on gay vacation hotspots. They say that three Catskills towns have huge numbers of gay vacationers who either stay at year round B&Bs or buy second homes. The first two, Livingston Manor and Jeffersonville are where Kolko made sure to be where the action is when he ran his camps. It's interesting that they recently sustained catastrophic damage in flooding earlier this month.

The third town, Callicoon, is also home to the Catskills "gay pride" parade. A Pesach hotel there burned to the ground in a multiple alarm fire right before Yom Tov.

Chazal say that catastrophies happened first to the Umos as a siman to do teshuva. Maybe Silver Lake and Regency should take note.

Baal H. Bos said...

Say what, the copeepod nonissue is an illustration of the ridiculous state of affairs the self appointed and so called rabbiners have put us in.

I for one would drink unfiltered tap water on top of the bimah on Yom Kippur if it meant we could rid ourselves of every Kolkofied pederast hiding behind his beard and raping our youth.

It is you, sir, who have misplaced your priorities.

I for one am not afraid to suffer the consequences of a little lashon harah when it comes to ridding Klal Yisroel of every poser who has trampled on our Torah by perverting it to their own ends by their own means.

Ask me who I am more afraid of, another Hitler or another Kolko. Another Hitler is going to come at me head on and I will know his terms and I will defend myself. Another Kolko is going to hide behind his upshlugging thumb, dandruff-riddled jacket, and dusty Borse. He is going to molest our youth in the basement when no one is looking, and destroy doros with one sick act.

I choose another Hitler any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

So save your rationale for filtered water, which I understand, Yudi drank while he had his shvontz buried knee deep in his last victim.

Your Thoughtful and Sensitive Feedback Please said...

David Fromowitz and other victims who want to go public - What do you think of this point of view?

I was repeatedly fondled by a rebbe in elementary school. Not only that, I saw my rebbe in the same physical position with other boys from my class that he was with me, so I ASSUME (but only assume, because I never discussed it with any of my classmates) that some other boys were victims just like me.

But, it happened 30 years ago. To my limited knowledge, this rebbe is still alive but no longer teaching. I personally DON'T want to revisit this matter. I don't even want to give out any hints who I am. My only point on this blog is that everyone is talking about victims, their suffering, their need for public support, etc.

But it's not true for everyone. Some victims suffered far less than others, and are living perfectly happy lives. Many such victims will suffer a lot more if the stories of the abuser become public, and now they have to reopen and deal with old wounds that they've put behind them. Remeber, 20%-25% (!) of boys are thought to have been abused.

Mario Cantone said...

"How did Rabbi Eisemann pick up the "Mario" nickname?"


That all started when he and I started sleeping together. I'm his teleynishe feigeleh.

Igros Moishe Peruser said...

"Prove it ! I won't hold my breath waiting."

That was a pretty rushed and uncouth post by mt mehdi.

I don't recall for sure if it's published in the teshuvos which I once went through but it's been said in Reb Moishe's name repeatedly all over. It first became all the rage when Gissinger started the big drive against bugs in lettuce in the 1980s.

Anonymous said...

Whither Yudi Kolko? said...

The NY Times, in typical form, is running an article on gay vacation hotspots. They say that three Catskills towns have huge numbers of gay vacationers who either stay at year round B&Bs or buy second homes. The first two, Livingston Manor and Jeffersonville are where Kolko made sure to be where the action is when he ran his camps. It's interesting that they recently sustained catastrophic damage in flooding earlier this month.

The third town, Callicoon, is also home to the Catskills "gay pride" parade. A Pesach hotel there burned to the ground in a multiple alarm fire right before Yom Tov.

Chazal say that catastrophies happened first to the Umos as a siman to do teshuva. Maybe Silver Lake and Regency should take note.




Maybe that's why Israel is now suffering because tey are allowing the gay parade week in August.

Anonymous said...

I was never fondled. I was hugged by a rebbe who smelled of cigarettes, but never abused.

I don't think I'd want to revisit it either if I had been, most normal folks pick up the pieces and move on, But, some people, depending upon age, the depth of penetration, the details relevant to each case, cannot.

Is it worse and in poor taste to "out" a rebbe who is past his sexual prime? For the Catholic church, that didn't matter. The victims wanted money, vengeance, retribution, healing, and a shared sense of closure. They got it too. They talked about "it."

Jewish Taliban said...

You have bombed us, uoj, no white flag in sight. Will you surrender? Will you give up, admit that you are a rosho, evil, the worst, our enemy? We are the best. We are us. U are J. We are N. We are I (yes, that feels good. I'll say it again. I. me. we). We R C. See? We are big, bigger, better, not badder and only in private meaner. Er. we're not really mean, I mean, we don't want to be mean. We just want to get ahead, I mean, along, along with tuvyah, with everybody else. Please mail your contributions to our legal defense fund and your new calendar will be in the mail.

You have bombed us, uoj, taken out our airport, our communications systems, our video cameras are no longer working, our refinery is burning. You are threatening the very infrastructure of our state. On behalf of the President, would you consider enlisting and moving to iraq? Otherwise, some idiot may recommend that you appoint you to the committee which will decide the veracity of victims claims. That would be a disaster.

We must consult our allies, create a united front.

A front. That's what we need, that's what we are.

Chashuve charedi rabbonim said...

The rabbonim of flatbush, baltimore, boro park, monsey, and just about every other chareidi community would like to commend uoj for speaking frankly, something they've never been able to do.

When you are paid by the klal, tied to a moisad, you have to worry about your job. Not uoj. A shoichet, he cuts through bull, slaughters the lamb, his blog, not a shlomim, but for the korban tamid.

The OU had an independent board ask for an independent investigation. As a result, the ceo moved. But, Ner Israel is innocent, Rav Eiseman is a tzaddik. We won't ask him which hand he used.

Yeshivois and Moisdois said...

"Another Kolko is going to hide behind his upshlugging thumb, dandruff-riddled jacket, and dusty Borse."

You forgot white shirt with yellow arm pits, polyester pants with a worn shiny rear, and an unshowered stank that can only be described as somewhere between a rotting carcas and ass sweat.

And if you can't see them you'll hear them dragging and clicking their heals on the floor from four miles away.

Disgusted By Copepods said...

Run the tap in Boro Park yourself, the neighborhood which is said to have the worst infestation in the 5 Boros and like everyone else who tried it, you will find bugs upon close examination.

Let's just say they discover worms in the sushi at Fuji Hana. Will you say that it's no problem because everyone ate it until now?

Anonymous said...

Ner Israel cordially invites the community to a public shiur on masturbation in yeshiva, a growing problem. The hanhola will be available to help you.

Dr. Shneur Leiman-Jewish Historian said...

I do not believe that at any time in Jewish history was "one" person more feared, respected, hated and observed as UOJ. Speaking to many Jews in leadership positions, this particular person has done a great service to Jews until the end of time. Jewish children will be safer, yeshivas will be under serious scrutiny, rabbis will be more accountable, and better qualified and responsible people will be going into chinuch. If UOJ is a rasha, then I'd like to be called one as well.

mt mehdi said...

Igros Moishe Peruser said...
"Prove it ! I won't hold my breath waiting."

That was a pretty rushed and uncouth post by mt mehdi.

I don't recall for sure if it's published in the teshuvos which I once went through but it's been said in Reb Moishe's name repeatedly all over. It first became all the rage when Gissinger started the big drive against bugs in lettuce in the 1980s.
--------

Glad I didn't hold my breath waiting. You still haven't given a source.

Camp Agudah said...

Avi Shafran warned us that if we give in to any government regulation, they will make us treat molestation victims and prescribe Haldol to Yudi Kolko types.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/us/16camps.html

July 16, 2006
Checklist for Camp: Bug Spray. Sunscreen. Pills.
By JANE GROSS
BURLINGHAM, N.Y., July 15 — The breakfast buffet at Camp Echo starts at a picnic table covered in gingham-patterned oil cloth. Here, children jostle for their morning medications: Zoloft for depression, Abilify for bipolar disorder, Guanfacine for twitchy eyes and a host of medications for attention deficit disorder.

A quick gulp of water, a greeting from the nurse, and the youngsters move on to the next table for orange juice, Special K and chocolate chip pancakes. The dispensing of pills and pancakes is over in minutes, all part of a typical day at a typical sleep-away camp in the Catskills.

The medication lines like the one at Camp Echo were unheard of a generation ago but have become fixtures at residential camps across the country. Between a quarter and half of the youngsters at any given summer camp take daily prescription medications, experts say. Allergy and asthma drugs top the list, but behavior management and psychiatric medications are now so common that nurses who dispense them no longer try to avoid stigma by pretending they are vitamins.

“All my best friends take something,” said David Ehrenreich, 12, who has Tourette’s syndrome yet feels at home here because boys with hyperactivity, mood disorders and facial tics line up just as he does for their daily “meds.”

With campers far from home, family and pediatricians, the job of safely and efficiently dispensing medications falls to infirmaries and nurses whose stock in trade used to be calamine lotion and cough syrup. Three times a day, at mealtimes, is the norm, with some campers also requiring a sleep aid at bedtime to counteract the effect of their daytime medications.

Bug Me Not said...

"It first became all the rage when Gissinger started the big drive against bugs in lettuce in the 1980s."

R' Yaakov Kaminetzky zl was not pleased that Gissinger went looking for problems which is not required. But once Gissinger found the problems, R' Yaakov said they need to be acted on.

boog said...

Read this weeks article (Page 3) by Pinchos Lipshutz, Editor of the Yated.

It is in praise of UOJ-Pinchos.

Incredible but true.

He has seen the light. Can Lakewood, Buru Park, Munsee and all of Dass Toyrah be far behind?

Yasher Koach, UOJ!!

Anonymous said...

Nobody wants to be on the losing side of this public battle against pervies. Nobody should take advantage of the situation either, accusing recklessly.

Yated Ne'eman said...

An Endorsement of UOJ!



Editor’s View
by Rabbi Pinchos Lipschutz

The Courage To Act

What is one to make of the never-ending stream of sorrowful news in our communities? It seems as if every day we hear of a fresh tragedy. The pain is so raw. How are we to respond to all of this?
Those of us who follow the news read such stories and wonder how it will all end. Where are we headed and is there anything we can we do to derail the constant carnage?
Perhaps we can glean inspiration and direction from this week’s parsha.
At the conclusion of Parshas Balak last week, we learned that following the episode with Balak and Bilaam, the Bnei Yisroel began to sin with the daughters of Moav. A nesi bais av committed his sinful act with a daughter of the leader of Midyan before Moshe and all of the Bnei Yisroel.
The entire nation stood around weeping, at a complete loss. Hashem was about to send a plague as punishment for the crime when Pinchos arose from the crowd.
He was the sole individual who was not confounded by the unprecedented outrage - the only one who remembered the halacha and knew what had to be done. Even as cynics mocked him and he himself was unsure of the outcome his act would produce, Pinchos ignored the scoffers and sprang forward, plunging a spear into the bodies of Zimri and his partner.
He thus stopped the already devastating plague and brought a swift end to yet another inglorious chapter in our people’s history.
Parshas Pinchos opens with Hashem telling Moshe Rabbeinu that “Pinchos the son of Elozor the son of Aharon the Kohein turned back G-d’s wrath from the people of Israel with his act of kana’us, and He did not destroy the Bnei Yisroel in His anger. Therefore, say [the following]: Hashem is bestowing upon Pinchos his covenant of peace. He and his children who follow him shall be privileged with the covenant of kehunah forever.”
By following the dictates he had been taught by Moshe Rabbeinu and intervening in a machlokes, Pinchos merited the blessing of eternal peace. The man of peace is not necessarily the one who sits back passively and does nothing. The one who sits on the sidelines weeping as evil rears its ugly head and seems to triumph is not promoting peace; he is encouraging evil.
Pinchos is deemed worthy to bear the torch of kehunah and carry on the tradition of Aharon Hakohein, to be an oheiv shalom verodef shalom, because he put his own ambitions aside and rose to the challenge. Pinchos was given the eternal blessing of peace because he made peace possible in Yisroel by exterminating evil.
Pinchos halted the plague which had already killed 24,000 Jews because he had the moral courage and clarity to act when others were confounded and immobilized.
He didn’t let popular opinion deter him from slaying those who brazenly defied the Torah authority. He knew that an oheiv shalom verodef shalom sometimes has to act courageously, even if his actions invite misunderstanding and recrimination.
Pinchos knew that the cause of peace is advanced through fidelity to halacha. Shalom is achieved by pursuing shleimus, even if that involves sacrificing sacred cows and jeopardizing a career.
Shalom is rooted in shleimus; when everything is proper, when everything is complete, and whole, then it is possible to also have shalom. If you are lacking in shleimus, if the state is not absolutely intact, then you cannot have shalom. Torah is the absolute truth, with it the world was created, and it serves as the ultimate yardstick in defining our behavior. If we stay true to it, then we will consequently be blessed with peace.
Pinchos passed this test and he was therefore singled out as being worthy of following in the footsteps of Aharon Hakohein, who exemplified the pursuit of shalom through the service of G-d.
With all of the countless misfortunes besieging our people as yechidim and as a klal, it does seem as if we are living through a period of mageifah.
Perhaps what we need are more people like Pinchos in order to stop the plague in its tracks. We need people whose loyalty to Torah compels them to arise from the mourners who sit weeping and demonstrate by action what needs to be done.
There are no prophets among us and no one can say why specific tragedies befall us. But we all are aware of evils being perpetrated which nobody fights. We all know that most things are not b’shleimus in our world. We are all aware of people who suffer and urgently need someone to rush to their aid. Apathy and often fear prevent us from carrying out these missions of mercy and justice.
Despots are experts in playing the game of brinkmanship and taking advantage of people’s reluctance to rise up against injustice, even in self-defense.
In our daily lives we also confront people who abuse their position or our own good natures, to serve their own selfish, destructive ends. We must have the fortitude to stand up to them in the tradition of Pinchos. We must speak up when confronted with injustice, while being careful to remain within the Torah-prescribed parameters.
We have to seek to achieve perfection in our personal lives and slay the demons which lurk inside our camp and in each one of us.
An eis tzorah is a clarion call to us to do teshuva and help return the world to a condition of shleimus. Tragedy calls out to people of inner greatness to conquer the urge to remain passive and take action, instead, to return our world and our people to shleimus through Torah. The only way to merit peace and tranquility is by following the path of shalom and shleimus as defined in the Torah.
Pinchos lives on as Eliyohu Mevaser Tov, who will announce to us the arrival of Moshiach when enough of us follow in his path. That path was forged for him by his rebbi, Moshe Rabbeinu. In every generation, there are individuals who carry a nitzutz, a spark, of the neshoma of Moshe Rabbeinu, who continue to light up that path. Let us seek them out, learn Torah at their feet, so that we may all merit to hear the call that the geulah sheleimah has arrived.
Every act we take to bring perfection to the world will bring us that much closer to the day when Eliyohu will announce that the golus has finally ended. May it come to pass speedily in our days.

Anonymous said...

i didn't exactly see the reference to uoj. This may be wishful thinking. Does the contemporary allusion to "carnage" refer to carnally raped victims, bombing victims, hanhola victims? Does Eliyohu have a blog?

What we need is - to serve in faithfulness.

Anonymous said...

until uoj came along who dared open their mouth about the corruption in yeshivas, covering up for molesters, and a sitting pedophile around children for forty years?

Auto Report World Editors said...

Re: Copepods and other bugs in water

Are you saying that the halachic standard for water is now a modern urban water system? Is fresh water from a well, stream, spring or lake now not kosher?

The best water I've ever tasted was straight from the rock at the Tel Dan preserve in Israel. It was almost sweet. I'm no fan of bugs and wouldn't eat shellfish even if it was kosher, but the copepod issue was manufactured by chumra of the month members indeed.

Anonymous said...

the hanhola cannot take seriously the rechilus on a blog about the alleged, supposed, made up artificial corruption in yeshivas. We are the AM HATOYREH!!!!!

WE. ME.

not those who distress us or disagree. The hanhola will decide if you can even stay here, let alone live. Come back tomorrow and ask for mechila.

BEG.

Anonymous said...

Klal Yisroel needs to ask themselves one question:

ARE YOUR CHILDREN SAFER NOW IN YESHIVAS THAN THEY WERE ONE YEAR AGO???

THANK UOJ FOR HEAVENS SAKE!!!SHOW SOME GRATITUDE!

Anonymous said...

UOJ, you are our lenin, our trotsky, our bold revolutionary, bolshevik, menshevik, mensch.

Red, blue and white, you are a star.

But, the hanhola still sees you as an effect of the churban.

Weeping through the night, they sigh and shake their fists at those who dare challenge them. To refuse a black hat, to question their motives, indeed, superiority, is chutzpah! We'd put you in cheirem if we could find you...

Meanwhile, we're trying to act like nobody knows, nothing is wrong and being mispallel that nobody find out. That's why rechilus is assur. So that nobody finds out...

Arab at the Kings Highway Newsstand said...

Surely Boog would never pay for a Yated subscription. The shnorrer blocks the access in front of my stand while leafing through the newspaper for free.

Elli Swerdloff said...

"R' Yaakov Kaminetzky zl was not pleased that Gissinger went looking for problems which is not required."

Der Brisker Rov zogt: "Nisht ken miztve tzu zuchen mitzves."

Yankel said...

I somehow doubt that Rabbi Lipschutz's editorial in the Yated was a clarion call for people to pick up spears and start stabbing alleged molesters - though one can hope, right? (Just kidding.)

Nor is it apparent to me that he specifically endorses the actions of this blog. (Just as it is not apparent that the "despots" he refers to are roshei yeshivah; in fact, I find it highly unlikely.)

Yet he surely is right when he says, "We all know that most things are not b’shleimus in our world. We are all aware of people who suffer and urgently need someone to rush to their aid. Apathy and often fear prevent us from carrying out these missions of mercy and justice."

Whether he meant OUJ or not (and I suspect that he did not), certainly no one can accuse OUJ of being apathetic or afraid. Or of not rushing to the aid of those who suffer.

I also very much like the connection Rabbi Lipschutz draws between shleimus and shalom.

I remember hearing once that emes and shalom are the only two absolutes in this world: one can be partially just, partially merciful, partially wise - but any statement that contains even an iota of a falsity is sheker, not emes. Any state that contains even an iota of conflict is milchama, not shalom.

As such, emes and shalom are ideals unlikely to be reached by any living person. We are not perfect, nor are any of the results of our actions. But they are ideals toward which we should strive. To reach the ideal of emes, we must eradicate sheker - not just the sheker of false statements, but also the sheker of lies of omission, the sheker of facades that conceal our true natures, the sheker of silence.

And to reach the ideal of shalom we must, as Rabbi Lipschutz says, seek to live b'shleimus, to root out those things (or people) that create turbulence (not those who rock the boat).

Yasher koach, Rabbi Lipschutz. Whether you intended to or not, you've given me hope that there may be people "out there" willing to join the people on this blog and confront the until-now taboo subjects of what perversions some people are capable of inflicting upon our children.

Sheldon Slither said...

Who said politicians are liars?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/nyregion/16albany.html?pagewanted=print

Since 2003, seven state lawmakers from New York City have been accused of crimes. That amounts to about 1 in 10 members of the city’s delegation to Albany.

The offenses range from the relatively petty — throwing a cup of hot coffee at an employee to the felonious, like bribe-taking.

The disproportionate number of arrests raises questions about whether the political culture of Albany — where, the novelist William Kennedy wrote, “Life without gravy is not life’’ — tempts lawmakers to brush up against the law by abusing their power and perks.

“I’m amazed at the brazenness of my colleagues,” said State Senator David A. Paterson, a Manhattan Democrat and the Senate minority leader. “There’s a higher rate of allegations made against public servants than against the public itself.”

Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, Democrat of Manhattan, seemed unfazed by the cumulative accusations of criminality and volunteered several caveats. A vast majority of legislators are honest, he said.

No moral compass automatically points to Brooklyn either, home to most of the latest accused miscreants, or, for that matter, to New York City.

In the 19th century, the city’s old Board of Aldermen was commonly known collectively as “The 40 Thieves.” In the 1970’s, Henry J. Stern, then a member of the board’s successor, the City Council, estimated that “the rate of indictment of council members was higher than the rate for teenagers in the South Bronx.”

Anonymous said...

Sheldon Silver might make a good honoree.

whoami123 said...

.

We work like a horse.
We eat like a pig.
We like to play chicken.
You can get someone's goat.
We can be as slippery as a snake.
We get dog tired.
We can be as quiet as a mouse.
We can be as quick as a cat.
Some of us are as strong as an ox.
People try to buffalo others.
Some are as ugly as a toad.
We can be as gentle as a lamb.
Sometimes we are as happy as a lark.
Some of us drink like a fish.
We can be as proud as a peacock.
A few of us are as hairy as a gorilla.
You can get a frog in your throat.
We can be a lone wolf.
But I'm having a whale of a time!

You have a riveting web log
and undoubtedly must have
atypical & quiescent potential
for your intended readership.
May I suggest that you do
everything in your power to
honor your encyclopedic/omniscient
Designer/Architect as well
as your revering audience.
As soon as we acknowledge
this Supreme Designer/Architect,
Who has erected the beauteous
fabric of the universe, our minds
must necessarily be ravished with
wonder at this infinate goodness,
wisdom and power.

Please remember to never
restrict anyone's opportunities
for ascertaining uninterrupted
existence for their quintessence.

There is a time for everything,
a season for every activity
under heaven. A time to be
born and a time to die. A
time to plant and a time to
harvest. A time to kill and
a time to heal. A time to
tear down and a time to
rebuild. A time to cry and
a time to laugh. A time to
grieve and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones
and a time to gather stones.
A time to embrace and a
time to turn away. A time to
search and a time to lose.
A time to keep and a time to
throw away. A time to tear
and a time to mend. A time
to be quiet and a time to
speak up. A time to love
and a time to hate. A time
for war and a time for peace.

Best wishes for continued ascendancy,
Dr. Whoami

P.S. One thing of which I am sure is
that the common culture of my youth
is gone for good. It was hollowed out
by the rise of ethnic "identity politics,"
then splintered beyond hope of repair
by the emergence of the web-based
technologies that so maximized and
facilitated cultural choice as to make
the broad-based offerings of the old
mass media look bland and unchallenging
by comparison."

Anonymous said...

Im not trying to be rude or funny here. But I came across a site HERE (Warning its got adult content) of an observant Jew who writes about Judaism, is on the board of his shul - and does such things. This, friends, is what happens when you don't talk frankly about IT - and then let an addict loose in your midst without reaching out to HELP him. And surprise - this person in this website? well his shul & family are trying to cover it all up. Like you UOJ seems people have to turn to the web to get any justice.

Toda raba UOJ

Anonymous said...

I a survivor of childhood abuse firmly believe that education would have helped me in many ways.

When I was 18 I discovered that what happened to me wasn't just something that happened.

I discovered it was real. It mattered and it's what was causing all the emotional pain in my life.

I think that' it's very sad that at 18 I still didn't know this.

In the non Jewish world they know what abuse is at age 12 for the most part cuz they know what sex is and they dont expect strange people to have sex with them.

I know for a fact knowing what was happening to me would have helped me.

It's hard for me not my family my school and anyone who had the opportunity to educate me but didn't.

Things do have to change.
IF the children are educated it won't stop the monsters from preying, but it can help chilren to learn to protect themself and hopefull to tell someone who will listen.

Getting someone to listen is a whole nother story.

Anonymous said...

Ii was in an elementary school that was notorious for harboring molestors. Rabbeim were thrown out and kids were pulled out at the mere mention of child molestation. I remember one rebbe said tgat "if anyone tries to touch y where your bathibg suit goes, tell yr patents". This sterilized speech caused a bunch of parents to withdraw tgeir children and this rebbe almost fired, if not fir his connections. Uoj is right. This has gotton outof hand and were sick.

Anonymous said...

I alsways wondered:
What would these Chassidish & Ultra O do if there was an autopsy done on one of there dead relatives? What would Weingarten do if the kids he raped died c”v and there bodies were autopsied? They would cry bloody murder! They wouldn’t rest until they had inflicted harm on the doctor, hospital, and medical profession.
But what happens when their young, innocent children are raped & molested? They would destroy the child!!
Somone I know went to Malkiel Kotler and told him (reffering to Kolko or Eismann) and told him that Lakewood is like Chelm, because in Chelm, when they wanted to crack down on crime, they destroyed the victims!