Principal arrested on molestation charges - Efrat Weiss - YNET
Principal of West Bank school arrested on suspicion of having inappropriately touched dozens of teenage male students. Suspect denies all charges
A school principal in a West Bank settlement has been arrested on charges of indecent assault against dozens of his students, aged 12-14, Ynet has learned.
Married and in his late 40s, the man was brought before the Kfar Saba Magistrates' Court on Monday, where he was remanded for three additional days.
According to the police, the suspect repeatedly denied all the allegations in his interrogation: "There was nothing of the sort, I'm being framed," he said.
The investigation began following a tip-off regarding acts the suspect allegedly forced upon eight of his students. A covert investigation was immediately launched, but began to build up speed after an official complaint was filed last week by a resident of the settlement where the incidents allegedly took place – a psychologist who said she was contacted by a family claiming the school principal molested their son.
Chief-Superintendent Mark Amiel told Ynet that investigators sought the testimonies of two youths following the complaint. Amiel said that since the boys were both under the age of 14, their questioning was conducted by specially trained officers and welfare officials.
One of the youths testified that the suspect would sit him on his lap and touch his genitals. The boy recalled at least 15 such incidents spanning nearly two-year. Another student reported the same pattern of abuse.
"This is a difficult and complex investigation," noted Amiel, adding that most of the incidents appear to have taken place within school walls. "We know of another incident that occurred a month ago, while the students were away on a field trip," he said.
"The suspect took advantage of his position and the innocence of dozens of children, employing the same methods to molest them."
Amiel said that some of the parents asked to consult with the settlement's rabbi before cooperating with the investigation. The rabbi, on his part, has cooperated with investigators in full and has been deposed.
"This investigation has just begun. Over the next few days the picture will get a lot clearer. These are shocking incidents, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. We estimate it won't be long before we accumulate enough material to build a case for an an indictment."
Steve's words of truth deserve a headline position:
FROM MASECHES GITTIN 57b:
"Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel, or it may be R. Ammi, or as some say it was taught in a Baraitha; On one occasion four hundred boys and girls were carried off for immoral purposes. They fully understood what they were wanted for and said to themselves, If we drown in the sea we shall attain the life of the future world. The eldest among them expounded the verse, The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring again from the depths of the sea. 'I will bring again from Bashan,' from between the lions' teeth. 'I will bring again from the depths of the sea,' those who drown in the sea. When the girls heard this they all leaped into the sea. The boys then drew the moral for themselves, saying, If these for whom this is natural act so, shall not we, for whom it is unnatural? They also leaped into the sea. Of them the text says, Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
We learn this gemara on Tisha B'Av because this story happened after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans. These young boys drew a kal v'chomer from the action of the girls and proceeded to make a kiddush hashem by leaping to their deaths. To them it was obvious, "Where's the shayla" they asked. How can we submit to the perverted desires of pedophiles? How can we submit to sexual molestation? If the girls, to whom the act is natural, would not submit, how can we?
Gentleman, I ask you, what has trasnpired in the two thousand years since this incident, that has made sexual molestation acceptable? What has transpired to make it not only acceptable, but something that is practiced by "rabbis" without impunity? What has transpired that has made the lives and neshamas of our children expendable for the benefit of these rabbinical pedophiles? I ask you --- WHO IS SICKER, THE PEDOPHILES OR THE CRIMINALS THAT CALL FOR MORE COVERUPS, MORE SWEEPING UNDER THE CARPET, AND FOR "DEALING WITH THESE THINGS PRIVATELY TO PROTECT 'EVERYBODY'???
Those children on the boat understood something that all the gedoilim today cannot comprehend. Either they don't comprehend, or they intentionally skip over this gemara, and skip over the passuk "Al Tigu Bimshichai". How much longer are we going to sit quietly while our children are led like sheep to the slaughter? How many more "incidents" or "cases" do we need to hear about?
How many more "tawdry tales", Avi Shafran? How much more "anecdotal evidence" do you need, scumbag? Why should you respond, you miserable menuval? Those are your exact words. This plague is not important enough to elicit a response from you or the Agudah? Only after you are exposed in a national magazine do you comment with your "we're not as bad as the Catholic Church" nonsense. You only find time to defend the Rubashkins. Scum defending scum. Perfect. The Rubashkins and Avi Shafran, a perfect match. One causes timtum halev by feeding neveilos utreifos and the other destroys neshamos by publicly protecting child molesters. You still think we are capable of policing ourselves, Shafran?
Ask your (former?) colleague Rabbi Horowitz how many calls he gets per week? AT LEAST FIVE OR SIX PER WEEK!!! Nah, there's no plague, sexual molestation is not rampant in our yeshivos, it's all an illusion. It's all a conspiracy concocted by UOJ. Just ask attorney Jeffrey Schwartz, UOJ goes out and recruits victims.
How much longer my friends, how much longer? Talk by Dov Hikind is nice, but it's cheap. We need definitive action. Assembly bill A11399 needs to be passed immediately, Dov. We need rabbis to proclaim from every pulpit that it is a mitzvah to GO DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE if you or someone you know is victimized. This is clear cut halacha. The laws of messira and loshon hara do not protect child molesters. The Torah says "Vechai Bahem", this is pikuach nefashos and a molester is a "rodef". If the rabbis are still not sure, please refer them to the gemara in Gittin 57b. They can learn a thing or two from the kinderlach.
47 comments:
If a Fortune 500 company is struggling or in the throes of a scandal, the CEO usually takes the blame and often will resign.
I would like to see the same action from the Moetzes.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
# Library Lover Says:
comments - arrow Right here in Ir Hakodesh, initial M, we have a molester in a major yeshiva, he has been there for yrs, a Rebbe..he was involved in a camp and everyone knew him as a molester..yet he is still here, still in the largest school, still teaching first grade..WHY???Dov, HELP!
08-04-2008 - 4:41 PM
I'm looking for the person who posted this comment on VIN a while back. You obviously know about this "Rebbe". We are seeking other victims of Abramson . PLEASE call Dov Hikinds office with any info that you have. Talk to Eli. His # is 718-853-9616. If there is anyone else out there who has any info on this animal please call as well. Tizku L'mitzvot.
FROM MASECHES GITTIN 57b:
"Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel, or it may be R. Ammi, or as some say it was taught in a Baraitha; On one occasion four hundred boys and girls were carried off for immoral purposes. They fully understood what they were wanted for and said to themselves, If we drown in the sea we shall attain the life of the future world. The eldest among them expounded the verse, The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring again from the depths of the sea. 'I will bring again from Bashan,' from between the lions' teeth. 'I will bring again from the depths of the sea,' those who drown in the sea. When the girls heard this they all leaped into the sea. The boys then drew the moral for themselves, saying, If these for whom this is natural act so, shall not we, for whom it is unnatural? They also leaped into the sea. Of them the text says, Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long,we are counted as sheep for the slaughter
We learn this gemara on Tisha B'Av because this story happened after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Romans. These young boys drew a kal v'chomer from the action of the girls and proceeded to make a kiddush hashem by leaping to their deaths. To them it was obvious, "Where's the shayla" they asked. How can we submit to the perverted desires of pedophiles? How can we submit to sexual molestation? If the girls, to whom the act is natural, would not submit, how can we?
Gentleman, I ask you, what has trasnpired in the two thousand years since this incident, that has made sexual molestation acceptable? What has transpired to make it not only acceptable, but something that is practiced by "rabbis" without impunity? What has transpired that has made the lives and neshamas of our children expendable for the benefit of these rabbinical pedophiles? I ask you WHO IS SICKER, THE PEDOPHILES OR THE CRIMINALS THAT CALL FOR MORE COVERUPS, MORE SWEEPING UNDER THE CARPET, AND FOR "DEALING WITH THESE THINGS PRIVATELY TO PROTECT 'EVERYBODY'???
Those children on the boat understood something that all the gedoilim today cannot comprehend. Either they don't comprehend, or they intentionally skip over this gemara, and skip over the passuk "Al Tigu Bimshichai". How much longer are we going to sit quietly while our children are led like sheep to the slaughter? How many more "incidents" or "cases" do we need to hear about? How many more "tawdry tales", Avi Shafran? How much more "anecdotal evidence" do you need, scumbag? Why should you respond, you miserable menuval? Those are your exact words. This plague is not important enough to elicit a response from you or the Agudah? Only after you are exposed in a national magazine do you comment with your "we're not as bad as the Catholic Church" nonsense. You only find time to defend the Rubashkins. Scum defending scum. Perfect. The Rubashkins and Avi Shafran, a perfect match. One causes timtum halev by feeding neveilos utreifos and the other destroys neshamos by publicly protecting child molesters. You still think we are capable of policing ourselves, Shafran? Ask your (former?) colleague Rabbi Horowitz how many calls he gets per week? AT LEAST FIVE OR SIX PER WEEK!!! Nah, there's no plague, sexual molestation is not rampant in our yeshivos, it's all an illusion. It's all a conspiracy concocted by UOJ. Just ask Jeffrey Schwartz, UOJ goes out and recruits victims.
How much longer my friends, how much longer? Talk by Dov Hikind is nice, but it's cheap. We need definitive action. Assembly bill A11399 needs to be passed immediately, Dov. We need rabbis to proclaim from every pulpit that it is a mitzvah to GO DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE if you or someone you know is victimized. This is clear cut halacha. The laws of messira and loshon hara do not protect child molesters. The Torah says "Vechai Bahem", this is pikuach nefashos and a molester is a "rodef". If the rabbis are still not sure, please refer them to the gemara in Gittin 57b. They can learn a thing or two from the kinderlach.
Steve,
You've outdone yourself. Wow! Moshe Emes V'Soraso Emes, city!
Keep up the good work, man.
I want to understand something. Where is Rabbi Marvin Hier on this issue? Why would someone spend 50 million dollars on a museum to commemorate the destruction of our people, and name it after Simon Wiesenthal who pursued justice from our destroyers, but then turn a blind eye when his own people are destroying each other?
UOJ is the Simon Wiesenthal of Jewish child molesters. He deserves all the financial and communal support that Wiesnthal got plus more. Wiesenthal did his work after it was too late. It didn't save anyone and neither will a museum. UOJ is more like Reb Michel Ber Wiessmandle, saving Jews one by one.
The "gedolim" should be ashamed of themselves.
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Authorities say a California sheriff's deputy and an attorney were among 55 men charged with possessing child pornography after an eight-month investigation.
The U.S. attorney's office in Los Angeles says the suspects used peer-to-peer networks to exchange graphic images and videos, then stored the files.
yeah the shomer negiah thing means kids will have no physical contact with a girl until they are married and this leaves them deriving literally all of their physical affection from those of their gender.
its a sick system and this sort of thing ain't an anomaly.
Anon @2:53,
Thanks. I hope the message is beginning to seep in. We have made tremendous strides these past few years thanks to UOJ, but we still have a long way to go.
The question that is being ignored, is the biggie : Where is the outrage over all the known abuses?
Why does our community arise in hysteria when non-kosher chickens get sold in Monsey, but not when a “heimishe” scams $110 million? Why the fuss over a non-tznius picture in a sheitel-store window, but no public outrage over a prominent talmid chochom who scammed $42 million from the government mortgage insurance? No reaction to so many recent scandals involving abuse, deception, molestation, and more…why?
What is the lesson that this lack of reaction is giving our kids? I suspect that the lesson is, that it’s okay to lie, cheat, and steal and molest, as long as in prison you only eat glatt!
Arthur,
I assume you are referring to Leib Pinter who is NOT a "prominent" talmid chochom and for the record, the Feds are still uncovering how much money was stolen by him & his brother Shmelka, which is now at over $100 million.
Pinter is only respected by the corrupt institutional heads. He is hated by most of the population, or at least the ones who know of his crimes. Perhaps inspired by UOJ, someone dropped off informational pamphlets all over Flatbush about him.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218710408515&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Rabbinate attacks restaurant blacklist
Aug. 19, 2008
Matthew Wagner, THE JERUSALEM POST
The Chief Rabbinate in Jerusalem and a group of capital restaurant owners have threatened to sue a rabbinic organization that published a damning report on the state of kashrut supervision in the Holy City.
Kosharot, an organization based in Elon Moreh that provides advisory services in the field of kosher supervision, compiled a blacklist - complete with names and addresses - of dozens of kosher restaurants around Jerusalem after conducting an investigation.
Kosharot recommended not eating in these restaurants despite the fact that all of them were under the supervision of Jerusalem’s Rabbinate.
The blacklist was later distributed via e-mail to hundreds of religious households throughout the city.
It was received with shock and dismay by people who had relied on the kashrut supervision of the Jerusalem Rabbinate and had dined at the restaurants on the list.
Kosharot said in response that it had no part in the publishing and distribution of the report, which was compiled for private use only.
Rabbi Eliyahu Schlesinger, who is responsible for the Chief Rabbinate’s kashrut supervision in Jerusalem, told The Jerusalem Post there were serious mistakes in the report.
The document states that restaurants with normal kosher supervision in Jerusalem are visited by a supervisor (mashgiach) only three to four times a week.
However, Schlesinger said supervisors visited the restaurants twice daily, once in the morning for at least two hours and once in the afternoon or evening.
Also, the report states that restaurants with regular kashrut supervision permitted non-Jews to place uncooked food on the fire when in reality this was prohibited under Chief Rabbinate directives.
In contrast, Schlesinger said it was permitted for non-Jews to place uncooked food on the fire provided the fire was lit by a Jew, in accordance with the Ashkenazi halachic tradition.
Jews who followed the more stringent Sephardi tradition that prohibited eating food that was cooked by a non-Jew could eat at restaurants with a more stringent mehadrin supervision provided by the Chief Rabbinate, he said.
“We discovered that many of the restaurants mentioned in the report were never even visited by anyone from Kosharot,” Schlesinger said.
Orthodox Jewish law prohibits eating some foods cooked by gentiles so as to prevent the development of close relationships between Jews and non-Jews that could lead to intermarriage and assimilation.
Rabbi Benny Lau, head of a congregation in south Jerusalem, checked Kosharot’s claims, visited some of the restaurants on the blacklist and met with the Jerusalem Rabbinate’s kashrut supervisors.
In an open letter that appeared on several Internet news sites, Lau said Kosharot’s report was in part an attempt to reduce the number of non-Jews employed by the restaurant industry in Jerusalem.
“The demand that a Jew place uncooked food on the fire is only for Jews who follow the halachic decisions of Rabbi Yosef Karo [author of the Beit Yosef and the Shulchan Aruch] and is not included in the Chief Rabbinate’s directives.
“There is a real concern that Kosharot’s interests are not restricted solely to Halacha and kashrut. Rather, for them it is no less important to reduce the number of non-Jews working in Israel.
“That is of course a legitimate consideration. But they should be open about it instead of turning thousands of people into eaters of treif food,” Lau said.
Noam Elboim, owner of the Koros chain of restaurants, said he was considering suing Kosharot along with several other restaurant owners in Jerusalem unless it retracted the report.
“Some of the most important rabbis of the haredi world eat in our restaurants,” Elboim said. “Our supervisor is one of the most respected and experienced around.
“We demand that Kosharot apologize and take back everything it wrote in the report.”
Elon Moreh Chief Rabbi Elyakim Levanon, who is also the president at Kosharot, said the report was not meant to be published.
“We compiled that report for our own private use and for a specific project involving the investigation of restaurants in Jerusalem,” Levanon said. “The report itself was provided to a private individual along with oral explanations. We are sorry that it reached the irresponsible hands of the person who distributed it without these oral explanations.
“Nevertheless, there are very serious problems with the kashrut supervision in Jerusalem,” Levanon said.
“To people who ask for my opinion, I recommend checking carefully before eating in a restaurant with regular kosher supervision in Jerusalem.
“There are serious problems with goyim cooking, not just for Sephardi Jews, even for Ashkenazim. In many restaurants goyim not only cook the food, they also light the fire.
“After all, non-Jewish labor is much cheaper,” he said.
Levanon said he hoped the public interest aroused by the report would improve the level of kashrut supervision in Jerusalem.
Arthur...
I agree with most of what you say but calling the scammer a "prominent talmid chochom?" I can think of alot more appropriate descriptions...prominent talmid chochom is not one of them.
Also, the $42 million he stole was really from us...US taxpayers. Ultimately we are paying for the bailouts of Freddie and Fannie.
It would be nice if Arthur showed some fairness & criticized Rubashkin with as much gusto as he does Moishe Finkel.
I wonder if Neuhoff is as medakdek in all his bungalow chiyuvim as he is in criticizing UOJ.
Chazal forbade the carrying from one enclosed private domain (such as an apartment) into another enclosed domain (such as an apartment building hallway) without an Eruv Chatzeiros. In the case of a bungalow colony, where, in most cases, each family has their own bungalow including it's own private kitchen, and each family cooks and eats separately, an Eruv Chatzeiros (in addition to an Eruv of wire and posts known as a "Tzuras Hapesach") would be required to allow carrying from the bungalows to the common grass areas. However, as previously stated, if the Owner of the bungalow colony (is an Orthodox Jew, and) maintains a Muktzeh item (ie. something valuable or delicate) or an unmovable item (ie. Refrigerator/Freezer, or other heavy appliance) upon which he retains ownership, within all the rented bungalows the Owner has effectively retained a Halachic right of total ownership of the bungalows, with the tenants as only a visitor/guest. In this circumstance, all parties are permitted to carry between the bungalows and common areas without the need for an Eruv Chatzeiros. However, the Owner/Landlord must maintain a heavy appliance in all the bungalows for this to be effective. Before relying on this heter one must discuss the particular circumstances with a Rov.
Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Brurah 366:1, 370:2
If anyone has access to Guidestar can you please look up "Hamaspik" - they have several chapters, I think all registered as independent 503C's called Hamaspik and the County name (Hamaspik Of Rockland County etc - they have Kings, Rockland and Orange) please contact me.
Also, someone tells me the Kolko affair is far more dirtier than so far reported. Someone caliming to "know it all" says many testimonies were thrown out of the window, and that there is some major fiscal shmutz that Kolko knows about Margo, that's why they don't want to talk and why Margo must cover Kolko. And whatever happened to Framowitz? Was he allowed to testify despite the statute of limitations?
Off topic - Emes V'yatzev
----------------------------
The next credit crunch
Our easy access to plastic is about to dry up - and with it our ability to fake living the good life.
By Geoff Colvin, senior editor
Cutting back on credit card use
(Fortune Magazine) -- We made it through the bursting of the Internet bubble and now the bursting of the real estate bubble. Next we may be approaching the end of the most worrisome bubble of all: the standard-of-living bubble.
That conclusion comes from the latest data on credit card debt. It's growing fast, but the problem is bigger than that - and to understand what it means, we have to take a few steps back.
For the past several years, the average inflation-adjusted total pay of American workers hasn't been increasing. That means we haven't been building a foundation for increases in our living standard. You might be tempted to say that by definition our living standard couldn't have increased, but that's not quite right. Even with stagnant real incomes, we can always live a little better every year through borrowing and pretending that our living standard is still rising, just as it was for decades.
So the Great Bull Market made us feel rich, and we felt justified in saving less and borrowing - and spending - more.
After stocks collapsed, home prices took off, making us feel rich all over again. So we continued saving less and spending more, creating the illusion that our living standard was still rising. In 2005 our personal savings rate went negative, but even that didn't slow us down, because our homes were still appreciating - and rising home values meant that household net worths weren't declining.
Of course, we don't hear those assurances anymore. Stocks are back where they were eight years ago, and home prices are where they were five years ago. But personal debt is much higher than ever before, and average pay is still going nowhere in real terms. So now how do we live as if our living standard is still rising?
End of easy money
That's where the credit card reports come in. Last year, just as the subprime crisis happened, credit card debt took off. The home-equity ATM had been shut down, so people turned to the last source of easy money they had left, the most expensive debt on the menu, credit card borrowing.
Since credit card debt has been growing much faster than the economy - more than 8% in last year's third and fourth quarters and over 7% in May (the most recent month reported)- people are apparently using it as a substitute for income. Thus, for the past year or so we have still maintained the standard-of-living illusion.
But a big crunch is coming - and here's why. Credit card debt, like mortgage debt, gets bundled, securitized, and sold off by banks. Citigroup (C, Fortune 500), one of America's largest credit card lenders, just reported that it lost $176 million in the second quarter through securitizing such debt. That happens when the buyers of those securities observe rising delinquency rates and rising interest rates, and decide the debt is worth less than Citi thought. More generally, the amount of credit card debt that is securitized nationwide has plunged by more than half in the past five months because it's getting riskier. That means credit card issuers will be charging customers higher interest rates, and since the banks can't offload as much of the debt as before, they'll have less money to lend to cardholders.
The squeeze has already started, which is why Congress is in the process of passing the Credit Cardholders' Bill of Rights, which would prevent issuers from changing rates and terms without warning, among many other provisions. But bottom line, the credit card money window is going to start closing - and soon.
So now what? It's hard to see where consumers can turn next. Home prices seem highly unlikely to start rising again soon. Stocks? You never know, but the Great Bull Market looks like a once-in-a-lifetime event. Homes and stocks are households' biggest asset classes by far. There isn't much else to borrow against.
It may be that the standard-of-living bubble finally has to deflate. Sustainable increases in living standards have to be earned, not borrowed, and that means performing ever higher value work that can't be outsourced. We haven't been meeting that challenge very well; doing so will probably require much more and better education for millions of Americans, which takes time and money.
The result may feel like deprivation, but I don't see it that way. Who knows - we might even find that living within our means and saving a little money actually isn't so bad.
First Published: August 20, 2008: 4:38 AM EDT
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080820/NEWS/80820020
A University of Iowa professor accused of asking to fondle female students in exchange for higher grades is missing.
Police say Arthur Miller was reported missing this morning. They say they received a telephone call but would not say who the caller was or where they were calling from.
Police also did not say how long Miller has been missing.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/is-credit-crisis-only-halfway-through/138091?icid=200100397x1208002123x1200429019
(Aug. 18) - The year-old financial crisis is not only far from over but could actually get much worse, bringing more big shocks to the U.S. economy and stock market, a host of experts said Monday.
Among the predictions: the failure of some of the country's biggest financial institutions, the collapse of 1,000 banks and a possible government bailout of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
"I think the financial problem is halfway through the cycle," David Kotok, chairman and chief investment officer from Cumberland Advisors, told CNBC. "There's another shoe to drop ahead of us and it could be more severe."
Kotok thinks Merrill Lynch , Wachovia and other financial companies are at risk of failure as the cost of raising capital soars at a time when the banks need to pay settlements over auction rate securities.
Meanwhile, billionaire investor Wilbur Ross told "Squawk Box" that a thousand banks could fail before the financial crisis is over.
And the impact on the credit crunch could be severe, he added.
His comments were echoed by Morgan Stanley co-President Walid Chammah, who told a German newspaper that the financial crisis will probably not end until next year or even 2010.
And a Barron's article over the weekend said the U.S. Treasury is growing increasingly likely to recapitalize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the months ahead on the taxpayer's dime.
The weekly financial newspaper said that such a move could wipe out existing holders of the agencies' common stock, with preferred shareholders and even holders of the two entities' $19 billion of subordinated debt also suffering losses.
On CNBC, Kotok agreed that Fannie and Freddie are in jeopardy.
"Were it not for government aid and backing they would have already had to declare bankruptcy. Their portfolios have problems," he said.
"You see one brick at a time in the financial problem area become addressed. Here's Lehman trying to divest real estate holdings in a falling real estate market," he added.
Anonymous said...
A few comments suggest that the information that has reached Dov’s office should be turned over to police for investigation. No. No. No.
While Dov is launching a project to develop a system to enable the frum community to address cases of abuse and molestation, he is not becoming the investigator, prosecutor, judge, or jury. Those cases that have been brought to the attention of Dov’s office are just anecdotal reports, many of which are credible. However, there are also some that may not be. Every case needs to be properly investigated to determine whether it is real, or it may be fiction or exaggeration. All of these scenarios have happened. So don’t expect prosecution based on info reaching Dov’s office, and certainly not automatic handing of reports to police.
-----------------------------------
This anonymous putz must be Avi Shafran's star talmid. Hey putzola, Dov Hikind is not waiting for your advice on how to handle these cases. In fact, the proper thing to do for these victims is to forget about Hikind and GO DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE! The police are equipped in handling these investigations, if you're worried about false accusations. Hikind's office is not better equipped than the NYPD. What is this terrible fear about going to the police? When a child is sexually assaulted, do you run to your rabbi? Do you run to your assemblyman or congressman? I never heard of such stupidity. Sexual molestation is a major felony. It is imperative that the police are notified when such a felonious assault has taken place. It is necessary for the protection of the whole community. The police department exists to protect our city and our neighborhoods from dangerous criminals. By not going to the police, you are protecting the criminals and endangering the community. Am I saying anything profound, or is this elementary school logic?
The argument I keep hearing about protecting the family of the alleged molester for the sake of his childrens' shidduchim is a lot of nonsense. Anyone who has gone through the shidduchim "process" knows that every speck of dirt imaginable is dug up about the prospective shver. If he was spotted going to a G movie ten years ago, all kinds of red signals are sent out and his kids become passul. Isn't it only fair that a prospective bride or groom should know that their shver is a child molester? If the shver suffered from a genetic disease, don't they have a right to know? There is some evidence that pedophilia may run in families, though it is unclear whether this stems from genetics or learned behavior. Withholding this information is wrong, regardless if it lowers the shidduch market value of the molester's kids. To use this as an excuse for covering up for molesters and allowing them to continue preying on other innocent children, is totally ludicrous.
BREAKING! Rabbis Walk Off Job At Agriprocessors, Cite Late Pay
Apparently the rabbis supervising Agriprocessors walked off the job this morning because they had not been paid.
Rabbi Sholom M. Rubashkin, Agriprocessors' VP (and Getzel's father) called an early lunch at 10:20 a.m.
Production resumed at about 11:35 a.m. after Agriprocessors promised to pay the rabbis this evening.
(While this information is based on two different Postville sources., I still have not completely confirmed it. If you have any information regarding this, please post it in the comments section below. Thank you.)
Misnagid said...
It would be nice if Arthur showed some fairness & criticized Rubashkin with as much gusto as he does Moishe Finkel.
11:00 AM, August 20, 2008
It's apples and oranges.
One sold Puerto Rican chazerei, and one didn't.
One has the Yated spin doctors and one didn't.
Rubashkin hut gekoift eer gesheft mit kusherin gelt un a bracha fun der rebbe. But Finkel..............
Aug. 17, 2008
Abraham katsman and Kory Bardash , THE JERUSALEM POST
One of the knocks on Barack Obama is that his résumé is, so to speak, paper-thin. But that is not entirely accurate. Obama, in fact, has held some major job titles which are noteworthy all by themselves: United States Senator, Lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School, Harvard Law Review President-each of these titles puts him in rarefied company. Tack on a few Illinois State Senate terms, and his resume actually appears solid. Yet, in spite of these prestigious positions, Obama has increasingly resorted to making claims of accomplishment that are so
patently inflated that even his cheerleaders at CNN and the New York Times are taking notice. Why?
It seems that Obama recognizes that while his résumé titles are impressive, his actual accomplishments are weak. It's as if he were jockeying to be the next company CEO with little to show for his prior high-profile management positions. So, he does what anyone else does who has spent years coasting on charisma without doing any heavy work: he
pads his résumé--stretching the truth here, stealing credit there, and creating the illusion of achievement during his lackadaisical, undistinguished tenure in previous jobs.
A few examples? Take Obama's first general election ad. We are told that Obama "passed laws" that "extended healthcare for wounded troops who'd been neglected," with a citation at the bottom to only one Senate bill:
The 2008 Defense Authorization Bill, which passed the Senate by a 91-3 vote. Six Senators did not vote-including Obama. Nor is there evidence that he contributed to its passage in any material way. So, his claim to have "passed laws" amounts to citing a bill that was largely unopposed, that he didn't vote for, and whose passage he didn't impact. Even his hometown Chicago Tribune caught this false claim. It's classic résumé-padding--falsely taking credit for the work of others.
Or take one of Obama's standard lines: his claim of "twenty years of public service." As pundit Michael Medved has pointed out, the numbers don't add up. Shall we count? Three years in the US Senate (two of which he's spent running for President), plus seven years in the Illinois State Senate (a part-time gig, during which time he also served as a law
professor) equals, at most, ten. Even if we generously throw in his three years as a "community organizer" (whatever that means, let's count it as public service), that still adds up to just thirteen.
Obama's other activities since 1985 have included Harvard Law School, writing two autobiographies (including several months writing in Bali), prestigious summer law firm jobs, three years as an associate at a Chicago law firm, and twelve years part-time on the University of Chicago Law School faculty. As Medved notes, it takes quite the ego to consider any of those stints "public service." Which of them is Obama including?
Obama made yet another inflated boast last month during his visit to Israel. At his press conference in Hamas rocket-bombarded Sderot, Obama talked up "his" efforts to protect Israel from Iran:
"Just this past week, we passed out of the US Senate Banking Committee - which is my committee - a bill to call for divestment from Iran as way of ratcheting up the pressure to ensure that they don't obtain a nuclear eapon." (Emphasis added.)
Nice try. But as even CNN noted, Obama is not even on that committee. That is one peculiar "mistake" to simply have made by accident. Again, his claiming credit for the work of others just looks like clumsy, transparent résumé embellishment.
Would someone with Obama's stellar list of job titles resort to making stuff up? He seems to think he has to. In spite of the many impressive positions he's held, he's done almost nothing with them. If he wants to claim specific, relevant accomplishments, his only resort is to stretching the truth.
Look at his record: he's now completed over half of a Senate term; yet, is there even one signature issue he has taken hold of, other than his own presidential run? Similarly, as the New York Times recently pointed out, Obama spent twelve years on the University of Chicago Law School faculty--singularly famous for its intellectual ferment and incubator of scholarship--and produced not even a single scholarly paper. He was President of Harvard Law Review, but wrote nothing himself. Even as a state legislator for seven years-or community organizer for three years, there is little that shows his imprint. OK, to be fair, he did write two books. About himself.
For all his glowing job titles, Obama has never gotten much done. Is it any wonder that his spokesmen respond with sweeping generalities when asked what Obama has actually accomplished relevant to the presidency?
Obama has held several serious positions from which a serious man could have made a serious impact. But Obama made none. He remains a man of proven charisma, but unproven skill--and not for lack of opportunity. He's treated his offices as if they were high school student council positions-fun to run for, fun to win, affirmations of popularity, heady
recognition from superiors, good resume-builders for stepping up to the next position of power, and.well, that's about it-actual accomplishments are not expected; heavy lifting is never on the agenda.
Obama's record of accomplishment is thin not because of lack of opportunity, but in spite of it. For twenty years, Obama has walked the floors of the most prestigious institutions in the nation, but has left no footprints other than those from his runs for whatever office came next.
It's been said that some people want to be President so they can do something; and some want to be President so they can be something. Obama has accomplished nothing noteworthy despite the golden opportunities and
positions he's had; why should we believe he'd be a different man in the White House?
No company would hire anyone with Obama's empty track record, pattern of underachievement and padded résumé to be CEO. Is America really ready to hire him as President?
Misnaged said
"It would be nice if Arthur showed some fairness & criticized Rubashkin with as much gusto as he does Moishe Finkel."
The jury is still out on Rubashkin.If and when Rubashkin is found guilty of all allegations, I will "criticize him(them)with as much gusto as I do Moishe Finkel".
"One sold Puerto Rican chazerei, and one didn't."
Because Rubashkin's chazirei is home grown.
"One has the Yated spin doctors and one didn't."
Finkel didn't keep everyone out from spying like Rubashkin does, so when he was caught red handed, there was no time for the establishment to cover it up with help from the Yated. Pinny Shitlips tries to impress us that Schvartzmandel learned by Reb Berel. If the Finkel cover up got in gear, he would extoll how Finkel's boy learned by AJ.
"Rubashkin hut gekoift eer gesheft mit kusherin gelt un a bracha fun der rebbe."
Yeah right, you mean like when the frierdik Rebbe told Aron Rubashkin to stop being oiver on kashrus takonos?
"If and when Rubashkin is found guilty of all allegations ..."
Get your head out of the sand.
I heard Sholom tried to offer the Rabbis a payment schedule, and they laughed at him. After receiving calls from reporters, Sholom stormed back to the sit-in and accussed the Rabbis of being a shonda for the Jewish People and promised them a check by the end of the day (didn't hear how much the checks would be for).
Interesting. Rubashkin could find a $100,000 for 20+ Rabbis to spend 3 hours visiting Postville, but couldn't find the money to pay his former workers the vacation money they are owed, or the the Rabbis, their salaries.
Arthur:
I don't remember a jury being convened in the Finkel case - yet he was driven out of town by the posse.
There's a ton of money and bribery at stake in the Rubaskin fiasco - If Finkel had that kind of money, he'd still be in business.
The 25 whiskered cows that visited the plant recently included!
Arthur imitates the OU said...
"If and when Rubashkin is found guilty of all allegations ..."
Get your head out of the sand."
Are you saying that Rubashkin will not be found guilty of all allegations?
No Arthur, you think that Rubashkin might not be found guilty.
DUH! said...
"No Arthur, you think that Rubashkin might not be found guilty."
Duh,If you thought I meant"Are you saying that Rubashkin will not be found guilty of all allegations?"seriously, and not just some good old fashioned sarcasm, then I think the "Duh" is on the other foot.
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"Whiskered cows", LOL. How about wined and dined whiskered cows? These cows are constantly in the news lately with their write ups describing their wonderful Gilligan's Island three hour tour at Agri. One of UOJ's favorite whiskered cows, Pinny Lipschitz has fallen madly in love with the Rubashkins as evident in his Yated articles. Shades of the Red Cross and Hitler. When the house comes toppling down on the Rubashkins, it will bring down these cows also, along with Genack,MMW,Lubinsky,Torossian and that putz from Matav, Biberfeld.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/julian_kossoff/blog/2008/08/19/the_kosher_trade__the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly
Agriprocessors has denied any wrongdoing.
Many Jews are embarrassed and angered by the allegations and, along with some religious leaders, are rethinking what it means to be certified kosher.
Historically, the kosher trade has a colourful, slightly roguish history.
Kosher fraud was widespread in the early 20th century while food riots against inflated prices saw Jewish mothers (always a formidable group) ransacking butchers shops and dousing poultry with petrol in New York in 1902.
In the roaring twenties, drawn by high profits, Runyonesque characters with names like Arthur "Totsie" Herbert would confront sellers in the name of the Greater New York Live Poultry Chamber of Commerce and extort one penny for every pounds of kosher poultry sold.
A decade later in Montreal they even fought the ‘Kosher Meat Wars'. Rabbis of competing factions of ritual slaughterers recruited gangsters to intimidate and beat up each other's supporters. A rabbi was pelted with stones, death threats were made, and a dissident butcher left for dead.
Finally, innocent customers shopping at a rival were attacked by a gang of butchers, causing several of them to be hospitalised. A handbill distributed at the time pleaded: "Do not eat any meat. The meat is dripping with human blood!"
Now, rabbis are at each others throat over the new allegations involving Postville plant, spurring calls by some Jews demanding that food companies be judged not just by the purity of their products but by their business conduct.
New York - Proper chinuch can be all about striking just the right balance — as much about not saying the wrong things as it is about saying the right things. Above all else, it’s about teaching our children by our own good example.
Take, for example, the trumped up rabbinic ban that led the singer Lipa Schmelczer to cancel a charity concert at Madison Square Garden last February.
Many people felt the economic blackmail brought to bear on Schmelczer, and the supposed issue of secular influences in his music, made a mockery of more important matters, and reflected poorly on our leaders.
Regular readers will recall front page reporting in The Jewish Star that proved that not all the rabbinic signatories were fully aware of what they were signing — suggesting that the exercise wasn’t so much one of Da’as Torah, as supporters claimed, as it was a fraud that would tend to lessen Emunas Chachomim, and faith, in general.
Still, many people took great pains to curb their confusion, hurt and anger in front of their children for fear of doing irreparable harm to the children’s faith in Torah leaders, even as the faith of the parents was being shaken.
Now, several hundred boys will return to yeshiva in September — including to some local institutions — having learned a very dubious lesson at summer camp: that their adult role models at Camp MaNaVu think that the “ban” was so completely ludicrous that it can be openly mocked in a roomful of children, and satirized as a color war breakout. MaNaVu, by the way, has strong ties to Yeshiva Chaim Berlin.
While they may be correct, spelling it out the way they did was, in our opinion, a terrible miscalculation.
Lipa Schmelczer himself was on stage at the camp in upstate New York last week performing a particularly secularsounding number. Suddenly, a man dressed in what was intended to pass for Charedi garb jumped up and ‘threw’ the singer off the stage, then harangued the campers about the damage secular-styled music was inflicting on their souls.
A video of the event on YouTube [THE YOU TUBE VIDEO HAS SINCE BEEN REMOVED] shows the campers responding with cheers for Lipa, deriding the “rabbi” and singing “We Will Rock You,” an anthem performed by the band Queen.
Here is the Video
We asked two well-respected local educators for their thoughts about the incident .
“This whole ban thing is a real screwup,” said one. “I think, honestly, it goes back to the situation that we’re in — you’ve got to be careful what you’re ossuring because it’s going to come back and haunt you.”
About the ban as fodder for a color war breakout, he said, “Once you start making fun — it’s just not what you’re supposed to do as adults — is make fun of rabbonim. To make a satire of a ban, is just dangerous.”
“The response of the kids is very telling,” the other educator observed.
“It’s not that they promoted a chilul Hashem,” he said. Without knowing the intentions of the camp officials, the context in which the satire was approved, or how color war was broken out in the past, he stressed, he wasn’t prepared to judge them specifically.
Still, he said, “You can see how upset the kids are about the whole thing. I think it really exposes an underlying problem that people think these kids are dopes and can be dictated too.”
“They are very naive about how a kid thinks and how he should be educated,” he added.
One final irony: Lipa Schmelczer, who feared for his livelihood six months ago, is now the undisputed star of Jewish music, confident enough to take part in this ill-considered satire.
To Steve @ 2:47
I guess you have the freedom to do all the name calling you want under the cloak of anonymity. You made some stupid statements about me personally, and I am returning them to you rewrapped. You are entitled to disagree, and so am I. Here’s my response.
The effort to collect reports of incidents of molestation that is being done in Dov’s office is not to substitute for the legal stuff. Dov is not making his office into a new reporting center for sexual offenses. He is an assemblyman, not a new precinct headquarters. The crime involved is heinous, disgusting, and by its very nature – hidden and private. I am personally aware of reports that were not credible. Some were fabricated by the child, some were created by irate parents who had other issues. I have no statistics to quote for percentages. There is a chance that any report brought to Dov is false, and noone can rush into immediate prosecution. The measures of safety that are needed must be taken, even on a sofek. That means getting the alleged perp away from locations and environments which carry risk of recurrence. But that does not mean making the alleged perp an example. We need to punish those who get convicted. Even beis din cannot treat the accused as guilty until a psak. There is no heter to punish an individual that has not been convicted. So stop with the hysterics.
It is challenging to set up a system that can facilitate some verification of the allegations that is credible. Previous statements from certain individuals are laughable (if they did not cost us so much) about penetration, two kosher witnesses observing the complete offensive behavior, etc. We do not have a system that is workable at this time. And we are not getting one that quickly, as it requires much input from various sources, but that is what Dov’s venture is set to do.
I do not blame victims for bypassing Dov and going to authorities, though I do not accept the responsibility for the questions about mesira (not because I disagree, but because I’m not qualified to pasken). I do have a bit more faith in the investigative skills of the police than in other interested groups. But that may also not be the answer.
There is a known perp in Boro Park in a shul that is open all day and late into the night. He has molested countless young people, and continues his predatory behavior as we blog. He has been arrested numerous times. One parent of a victim related to me that he met with the brass at the precinct to inquire about the failure of the police to apprehend him and hold him. He was told that the police are now refusing to arrest him since he has rabbis and other influential people bailing him out within minutes of notification that he is arrested once again. Even with police involvement, our wonderful community imbued with chesed has managed to support a criminal out of mercy for his family.
You have a point about needing to work with the police, but I postulate that this is wholly inadequate. A system that does not have loopholes and escape hatches needs to be developed. This is tougher that it seems.
In case you are wondering, I won’t be the cover up for molesters. But I will not endorse anything that punishes an innocent man. We need a system that truly convicts the real molester and acquits the one who is truly innocent.
Just a note: I have never met Avi Shafran, whoever he is.
There is no heter to punish an individual that has not been convicted. So stop with the hysterics.
I'm not the one who started with the hysterics. Check your original "NO NO NO" post. Did I mention anything about punishing an individual that has not been convicted? All I said is that if you or someone you know is a victim of abuse, to go directly to the police. They are the ones who are best equipped in investigating these cases. Again, there is no issue of messira here. You don't have to be a possek to realize that. FYI, Rav Elyashiv has already passkened that a child molester has the din of "rodef" and that all means necessary can be used to stop him, including going to the police. The rabbanim of Baltimore in their April 2007 mea culpa also acknowledged this:
"As such it is already well established by our Poskim that an abuser is to be considered a Rodef (literally, a pursuer), effectively poised to destroy innocent lives and, therefore, virtually all means may be used to stop him and bring him to justice. Communities and day schools-with the blessing of Gedolei Yisroel-have encouraged and facilitated the reporting of these crimes to the local authorities, who are most equipped to investigate and prosecute these complex claims."
Anyone that refuses to report a child molester to the authorities because of messira, is a classic chassid shoteh. Any rabbi that advocates this is a classic zakken mamreh. That this is still a question in your mind and in the mind of some VIN commenters is very troubling.
There is nothing ingenious in your comments about setting up a system to investigate claims. UOJ, myself and other bloggers have been calling for this for over two years now. We need this panel to investigate those cases where the statute of limitations have expired or if the victim and his family cannot go to the police for some reason. This panel should be made up of qualified professionals, not rabbis.
I'm glad you brought up the case of the Boro Park perv. I think you are referring to convicted child molester Jerry Brauner. I have written several posts about him, most recently after Tisha B'Av when he was invited to be B'aal T'filla. I don't know why you are afraid to mention his name. You seem to know a lot about this case and I assume would also know his name. Is it because of lashon hara? Again, the laws of lashon hara do not protect child molesters. There is a chiyuv to publicize the names of these molesters in order to protect the community. Is there a bigger toeles?
In regards to the Brauner case, it is not news that the community constantly bails him out. This is also a perversion of halacha, that of pidyon shvuyim. I don't believe that the police would not charge a criminal because he will eventulally be bailed out. If that is the case, this is something that Hikind can get involved in. Recently, Brauner was seen swiping at young children during Mincha at the Shomer Shabbos shul. The eyewitnesses reported this to the Chaptzem blog instead of going to the police. Brauner is out on probation and had they gone to the police, I think he would have been put away by now.
Your concern abour false accusations should not override the responsibilty of protecting our children. Such false accusations are very rare since children would rather not be labeled for the rest of their lives as molestation victims. In fact, more than half of abuse cases are never reported. In the event where the accusations are fabricated, the police will certainly be able to weed out these cases. Furthermore, those that are making up stories would be afraid to go to the police for fear of being exposed. By calling on victims to go immediately to the police and by setting up a professional investigative panel, we would finally be dealing with this plague in an effective manner.
my children were placed in frum homes where they were raped. Yes I mean Ohel. And In court they did everything they could to prevent me from having custody. and fought me tooth and nail for two years. Now most have moved out but I am still paying child support for one of my children to be in the hoome of a convicted child rapist--all because of ohel
the basic story is that my x wife had remarried. Her husband had recently been in prison for raping his daughters. But he is a highly respected member of a Chasidic community in Brooklyn. A prominent Chasidic rabbi pulled the strings and he was out of prison after having spent only a few days there.
Then he began using my children for punching bag practice. One of my girls called me and asked what to after he attacked her I said call the police.
He was arrested and yet again no problem he was out the next day. But there was a restraining order on him for about a month. So my x wife left the kids to go live with him. Then ohel g got them. At that point I found out what was going on and went to the agency with Rav Nelkenbaum the current rosh yeshiva of the Mir yeshiva in Brooklyn as a character witness. He knows me very well since the time I had been a bachur in the yeshiva and a avreach.(i.e married) the agency ignored rav nelkenbaum and I. It sounded to me that he was expecting that treatment since also understands the world outside the gemara. But as a friend he agreed to come with me to vouch for me though he thought it was futile.
Then I went to court and found myself being accused of all types of nefarious deeds by aohel. It seemed bizarre to me and still does. The funny thing is all through the two years I was trying to get my kids out of that agency they were telling me was hell and I also had reason to suspect they were being used sexually by the frum families they had been placed with.—of course later that turned out to be true.
Somehow I was being accused of the very things they were doing. But legally I was what they were calling at the court –non respondent—ie not accused of wrong doing.
And here is where it gets weirder for some reason they were able to manipulate the child welfare agency in new to recommend the children be placed with the child rapist. So I lost the battle and the war. Nowadays I guess sexual molestation is less popular by the frum.
let me know the name of this person in boro park that has rabbis covering up for him
it is a chiyuv on you to let us know so while rabbis may cover up i for one wont and i will go allo over with his name and picture
thats how you do this one perv at a time
stop protecting them
you know a name its an open blog
UOJ KNOWS HOW TO VERIFY IF THE POLICE ARE PROTECTING HIM
SIMCHA FELDER WHO DOES NOTHING EXCEPT TO PROTECRT MOLESTERS NEEDS TO BE CALLED AND ASK HIM WHY HE IS PROTECTINMG BOBOV MOLESTERS
Steve:
I honestly did not take note of the name of the molester, and that is why I did not name him. I am glad that you did.
The allegations against an individual as a molester require that immediate action is taken to protect the victim and potential victims. Not to prosecute. I have no condolences for whatever befalls a molester. The challenge is (I may be repeating myself) achieving verification that the injustice (too mild of a word, I know) has occurred. I can cite several cases where issues over money have become the basis for parents seeking to destroy a rebbe-tutor, and this had the parents campaigning through false reports. If we are trigger happy and send everyone to police, we will catch some molesters and destroy other innocent people. Especially if we have an automatic police report model.
You are perfectly accurate that we lack a system of verification, and our challenge is to develop something that will please both halacha and the law of the land. Such a panel should include Rabbonim, but not only Rabbonim. I would add that many Rabbonim, despite their vast knowledge of Torah and halacha are naïve and even ignorant about many issues where we need their ability to guide us. I once had a shailoh on a chicken, and the initial psak of the dayan was negative. I shared this with the chicken “socher” who was a family friend. He stated “Aider men gait tzum dayan, geit men tzum katzav” – prior to going to the dayan, go to the butcher. He explained that what I had found by the chicken was a result of the processing for packaging, and unrelated to the kashrus of the product. I took this information back to the posek (who knew the businessman), and he changed his psak. Our Rabbonim too often lack basic information about the facts on the ground. Their vast fund of halacha expertise becomes useless if they do not know the “metziyus”. So my vision of a panel would definitely include Rabbonim, but could not be limited to them. In addition, these Rabbonim would have undergone considerable training to have adequate knowledge of the facts on the ground. Undoubtedly, professionals would be involved. I also envision other community members being involved. Is that too many people? Where should we draw the line? There are many difficult questions here.
The investigative panel before police is critical. One would be foolish to expect perfection, but the need to weed out cases that do not involve a “rodeyf” is crucial. I recently consulted to a case where a 10 year old boy called home and gave the parents the code he was given before the summer in case of “boundary violation”. (How’s that for PC?) I participated in the investigation. A counselor from a different bunk had pinched the child on the cheek in the dining room even after being asked to stop. He then gave a few more smacks, including one on his bottom. The child had asked him to stop several times. This was pursued relentlessly through two different menahalim in the camp whom I know well, and who have extensive training in this issue. The result was that this counselor is not only being sent away from the camp, but will have a record (he falls below the threshold for reporting to authorities), for future reference, as abusive. Here’s the catch. “Physical abuse”. There was no molestation of any kind, and pinning this on him is totally unfair. He does not belong in chinuch, neither yeshiva nor camp. But to brand him a molester or sexual abuser is equally criminal. There’s more to the story, but the point is that the investigation led to the fact that the child was offended, and used the signal that directed us to consider this a sexual offense when it wasn’t. These mistakes happen often, and if we develop a system, we cannot have false positives on our consciences. At the level of the child complaining, I do not mind the exaggeration, but this is not okay to brand someone forever.
This fear will never lead me to compromise on safety. Upon accusation, the alleged offender must be removed from those environments and situations that involve risk, and all victims or potential victims must be guaranteed complete immunity and safety. Then a “panel” must immediately investigate the situation, and bring it to authorities if there is credibility. A mother crying in someone’s office or talking on the phone is not enough to establish credibility.
Just to recap, the poskim have established that an abuser is a rodeyf. None of these poskim needs my endorsement. However, none of them ruled that an accused abuser is a rodeyf. That’s the sore point here. This sofek can either be used to protect an innocent man or to destroy him. I never even hinted that I would lessen anyone’s protection or safety at any time.
This phantom investigative panel that we are discussing, presently does not exist. If and when it ever does come into existence, I have no problem with rabbis being part of the panel, as long as they have no relationship whatsoever with the parties involved. In the meantime, victims and their families must go directly to the police. It is an obstruction of justice and a perversion of halacha to advise them otherwise. Furthermore, it is totally ridiculous to suggest to these alleged victims and their parents, "Don't go to the police because you may be vindictive, pathalogical liars! Those vindictive parents you talk about are not running to the police to file false reports and expose themselves to arrest and prosecution. Besides, if they would be so daring and cunning, they will not wait for rabbinical approval. So your fears of innocent people being prosecuted are baseless and unfounded. Let the American justice system do its job. It has done a decent job for over two hundred years and is surely more reliable than the carpet sweepers committee that exists now.
The problem ten years ago was the frum contolled the police. I tried to get help. My children were begging me to save them from being rapped in Ohel and I went to court fighting Ohel every week. Not my Ex wife but Ohel itself was the force bending the courts to its will.
My sin was I am not frum- or not frum enough.
Maybe things are different now.
Steve:
You are well meaning, but not accurate. Once police are brought in, the reputation and family of the alleged perp are finished, even with acquittal in court. Public opinion has a way of doing this, to our deep misfortune. I feel strongly that whatever measures are needed for protection and safety should be taken immediately. Then we need a system, which has not yet been developed, to establish whether there is credibility to the claims. If so, we do need the investigative powers and skills of the court system, and some way to do this is a must.
The point about the rabbis involved being bias free is well-taken, and I second the motion. If a Rav of a kehila is to vote about an allegation regarding one of his members, he could not do so without bias. Likewise, Rabbonim involved in decisions about a yeshiva or mosad of chinuch must be totally independent of any relationship to that mosad.
Not all false claims are because of pathological lying, although that can also happen. Some are simply exaggerated, or misrepresented, as in the example I gave. Regardless, we cannot create a system that throws out the baby with the bathwater. You’re perfectly right that the existing system is seriously flawed. And I am perfectly right in insisting that anything we develop not be seriously flawed in the opposite direction. I am glad you raised the point about bias by Rabbonim.
We need to bear in mind that there are two major areas of complaint in which just an accusation is given credence, due to the issues of safety – allegations of child abuse and of domestic violence. One would expect that all such claims are true, but that is far from accurate. A frighteningly high percentage of divorces involve such allegations that are made only for the effect, not based on truth. Yet, there are virtually no known cases of prosecuting the accuser of allegations proven to be false. That is a serious handicap within the system. As such, there is an invitation to use the system as a prosecutorial weapon to gain personal advantage. This is a problem, and I am unwilling to support the creation of another system that does the same types on injustice. Yet, we must do whatever is possible to insure protection and safety. Where we disagree is on the limits that one must take to guarantee safety.
Is the "fiscal shmutz" the scam with govt provided lunch and breakfast that the students/parents were charged for??
Some are simply exaggerated, or misrepresented, as in the example I gave
Your example was a bad example. If everything happened exactly as you say it did, the guy deserved what he got. No teacher or counselor has a right to physically assault a child, not on his face or his rear end.
This is a problem, and I am unwilling to support the creation of another system that does the same types on injustice.
I am not calling for the creation of another system. The system is in place already. The police department is there to serve us. You are the one who is calling for obstructions of justice and coverups. My answer is very simple: if you or a loved one is a victim of sexual abuse, or any type of physical abuse, you must go directly to the police. If the victim will not go, or cannot go, then your investigative panel can get to work.
Every police action I see is witnessed by countless gawkers and becomes the talk of the block and community. It also gets reported almost immediately in the media, which does not withhold names unless they are minors. Thus, the shmear occurs immediately. The innocent never have a chance to protect themselves. Yes, we have a system, but it is completely public, and does not have the privacy that an effective investigation needs. So what we now have punishes those who are not convicted (even if they might be), and is less efficient because of the public involvement. This is not okay.
As long as we can remove the alleged perpetrator from risky places, and protect victims or potential victims, I would prefer to see something in place to verify credibility before moving it to the public eye.
So what we now have punishes those who are not convicted (even if they might be), and is less efficient because of the public involvement. This is not okay.
This is the law of the land and the system we live under. If you don't like it, then move to Iran or some other dictatorial country. There the accused pedophiles will get a fairer deal. To intentionally obstruct justice by advising victims or intimidating them into not going to the police, is criminal. The only non-risky place for perpetrators is prison. Otherwise, they will go from one yeshiva to another, one community to another, or one country to another. When will you ever learn?
Steve:
You seem to have a one tracked mind. I didn’t and wouldn’t advise or opine anything to obstruct justice. I am not against going to police. I am against the rush to make reports before there has been some mechanism that assures that there is credibility. I do not know what mechanism that is. I am not suggesting we not follow the law of the land. I am against the knee jerk reaction to make the federal case out of something over which someone later says, “Whoops, sorry for destroying you.” I do not subscribe to intimidating anyone against going to police. Stop complaining about something I never said.
Our semantic issue is that you are talking about perpetrators (who are guilty) and I am talking about someone about whom there are allegations that have not passed any degree of scrutiny. Even the criminal court system will not go to trial until a grand jury has determined there is a credible case (they do not determine guilt).
I was involved in a recent case that made it to police report quite quickly. The police actually contacted a community leader and asked to work with him. The first request by the police was that the matter be withheld from the public (media, discussion among other community leaders and organizations) so that the investigation can be done quietly which is more effective and accurate. This comes from the cops themselves. The hoopla that would occur in our communities is actually detrimental to the work of this secular system.
As for those who are guilty, do whatever it takes to protect any potential victims everywhere, track them through whatever mechanism works, and let them spend their days away from the community.
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